Our Stories

Oct 8

In this episode, we meet our hosts (Weston, Nikki, Justin, and Seth) and talk about queerness before diving into three relationship stories. This time, Weston & Seth, Nikki, and Justin each thell their own relationship stories. For all you discourse nerds, or if you want to learn more about queerness, our round table discussion starts at 00:04:08. For those of you who want to jump to the juicy relationship bits, start listening at 00:15:44. We hear about Justin discovering a new friend and a new community, Nikki’s journey to self-acceptance, and the story of how Weston and Seth navigated transforming a hookup into a platonic friendship.

Content Note: This episode is rated as explicit for the occasional use of mature language and some brief, but frank discussions of sexuality.

In this episode

Relationship story: 00:00:05

Host intros: 00:02:51

Round table discussion: 00:04:08

Justin & Steven Story: 00:15:44

Nikki Story: 00:28:38

Weston & Seth Story: 00:41:55

Announcements: 01:08:46

Transcript

Weston (00:00:05):

I want to tell you a story. It's probably a story you've heard before, so bear with me. It's 1982 in Boulder, Colorado. The internet doesn't exist yet, so students at Colorado University actually have to go to the library if they want information. As a result, the university library is a pretty happening place. It's midterms, so the library is especially crowded with stressed-out, over-caffeinated, and under-rested students cramming for their exams.

Weston (00:00:39):

So in walks this tall, lanky, nerdy guy. He's a grad student in the physics department, but he dresses more like a farmer. And he catches sight of this beautiful woman out of the corner of his eye. She has long black hair that falls straight down her shoulders like a waterfall. And she is hunched over a biology textbook, furiously taking notes. So this guy walks up to her and asks her out. She immediately shoots him down. She came to the library to study, not to get picked up by weirdos. And besides, she already had a serious boyfriend. And that's that. Except, turns out, this woman cannot get this lanky, nerdy farmer guy out of her head. Her relationship with her boyfriend is falling apart. She can't really imagine marrying him. And her mind just gets stuck on this guy from the library.

Weston (00:01:37):

For weeks she sees this guy walking around campus and can't get up the courage to ask him out. She talks about him so much that all her friends get sick of it. Just when she thinks she might lose her mind, the unexpected happens. This guy runs into her again and asks her out for a second time. And she says yes. The rest is history. They move in together. They get married. They have three kids. They grow old together. The end.

Weston (00:02:10):

Actually, this is the story of how my parents met and how they fell in love. But sometimes it feels like this is the only relationship story that I have ever heard, boy meets girl, boy asks girl out, boy gets girl, the end. But what about all the other types of relationships that are happening out there? What about all the people for whom this narrative just doesn't seem to fit? What about the gays, the lesbians, bisexuals, pansexuals, asexuals, trans, gender-fluid, queers? What about their relationship stories?

Weston (00:02:49):

This is Queer Meets Queer.

Weston (00:02:51):

Hi, I'm Weston. I'm nonbinary, and I go by they/them pronouns. What nonbinary means to me is that one day to the next, I don't know if I'm going to wake up feeling more like a boy or more like a girl. Usually I'm somewhere in between. And yeah, that's me.

Seth (00:03:07):

My name is Seth. I, uh, identify as, like, 80% gay. I think I've always landed on percentiles to kind of help identify myself. And I think I mostly identify as male, but I'm not really attached to it. (laughs)

Justin (00:03:22):

I am Justin. Uh, I use he/him/his pronouns. I identify as I guess if we're using percentages, 100% gay, and I guess 100% male. I don't know. I ... Gender's a construct, so, uh, male represents my genitalia. (laughs)

Seth (00:03:38):

(laughs) Yo.

Nikki (00:03:42):

Fair, fair. My name is, my name is Nikki. I use they/them pronouns, but I tell people my pronouns are whatever you see me as in the moment, because none of them bother me. Um, so I, I kind of just use they/them as, like, a blanket term. And I identify currently as nonbinary, gender-fluid, everything and nothing at the same time.

Weston (00:04:08):

In this podcast, we are going to tell stories about queer relationships, specifically the most important relationships in our lives. So there's two things to unpack here, what do we mean by queer and what do we mean by the most important relationships in our lives? I want to start with the most important relationships in our lives, because that seems like a much easier thing to unpack. Queer is a word that we'll, we'll get back to in a second, but it has a lot of baggage. So have any of you ever heard of Dunbar's number?

Justin (00:04:40):

Yeah. Essentially my understanding is just that it's a principle that speaks to how many, um, simultaneous relationships person can hold.

Weston (00:04:49):

Yeah, that's exactly right. So Dunbar's number is a theorized cognitive limit on the number of relationships a person can maintain at a given moment, so exactly what you just said. So Robert Dunbar is this British anthropologist and evolutionary psychologist who studied primates and was really interested in how many relationships a, a, a single average human person was capable of maintaining. And he was asking this question in the early 1990s when people were becoming more and more connected. And he came up with this number, 150, and that's Dunbar's number. And he describes it as being the number of people that if you were to meet them in a bar, you would feel comfortable inviting them to sit down with you and have a beer and it wouldn't be awkward, or vice versa, you would feel comfortable kind of inviting yourself to have a beer with them and just chat.

Weston (00:05:46):

One of the interesting things about this is that he also studied hierarchies within this 150 people. And he found that every single person tended to have this really small inner circle, and this inner circle were the most important people to them. It was, you know, a shoulder to cry on, someone you can go to for anything, someone you probably speak with on an almost daily basis. And across the board, this inner circle was about five people. And so when we say the most important relationship in our lives, we're really talking about these five people who are closest to us, and those are the relationships that we're interested in hearing stories about.

Weston (00:06:34):

So I'm gonna read this quote by John Corvino. John Corvino is an American philosopher. He's been a huge advocate for gay rights and specifically for gay marriage. "Think about the wide range of activities that make up our romantic lives. When we talk about heterosexuality, we talk about that full range. But when we talk about homosexuality, we narrowly focus on sex, and then we get this skewed picture where straight people have relationships and gay people have sex, where straight people have lives and gay people have lifestyles. The thing is that gay people's romantic lives, like straight people's romantic lives, are made up of a wide range of feelings and activities and relationships."

Seth (00:07:16):

I like that.

Nikki (00:07:18):

Damn. That's so real. I've never thought about that before.

Seth (00:07:21):

It is real. That's real as fuck.

Nikki (00:07:23):

When you read that, I was like, "Oh my god! Heck yes."

Weston (00:07:26):

I think another thing that I, that I notice in this quote is just our culture's obsession with love stories in particular and how we rarely talk about the really important relationships in our lives that aren't based in romance or are, are, maybe have a romantic edge to them, but are really built around something else. And so I think that when we talk about, like, the whole scope of human feeling and relationships, that goes beyond our romantic partnership. And that's just not something that I've ever seen in any media is, you know, this idea of, like, queer friendship or any kind of relationship that is platonic in nature. It's always just, like, pining and yearning and unrequited love and abuse and heartbreak and sex.

Weston (00:08:10):

So next I'd like to talk about the word queer. If you look up the word queer in Merriam-Webster's dictionary, you get an entry that is literally 1,000 words long. It's totally overwhelming. Um-

Nikki (00:08:24):

(laughs)

Seth (00:08:24):

(laughs)

Weston (00:08:24):

Uh, yeah, if you-

Justin (00:08:27):

It's almost like it's a tough-to-define thing.

Weston (00:08:32):

Why would we use queer as an umbrella term for this podcast?

Justin (00:08:38):

Why would we use it?

Nikki (00:08:40):

I think the point of it, the intention behind using it, is to capture every single person who falls on the spectrum, and there are many, many different identities and terms and pronouns. And when I use the word queer in my head, it's all-encompassing for all of those equally.

Justin (00:09:01):

I also think that, like, as a social movement, like, it's important for all of these various identities to actually come together. And so I think that queer allows for us to do that.

Nikki (00:09:16):

"Of, relating to, or characterized by sexual or romantic attraction to member's of one's own sex, homosexual, gay."

Justin (00:09:23):

"Of, relating to, or characterized by sexual or romantic attraction that is not limited to people of a particular gender identity or sexual orientation."

Nikki (00:09:31):

"Of, relating to, or being a person whose sexual orientation is not heterosexual and/or whose gender identity is not cisgender."

Justin (00:09:40):

"Of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity cannot be categorized as solely male or female, gender-queer, nonbinary."

Nikki (00:09:45):

"Of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity differs from the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth, transgender."

Weston (00:09:57):

I think another thing that is interesting is I hear a lot of people say, "Well queer is an insult." Queer is an adjective. And as an adjective, it means odd, strange, eccentric, unconventional. It also can mean questionable, suspicious, sick, unwell. And I think it's especially this sick, unwell part that has driven a lot of the negativity associated with this word, and then also the fact that a word that means sick, unwell was used for so long to describe people who were gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, gender-queer, um, you know, not heterosexual, and not cisgender. But what I can't really escape from is the fact that there is no word to describe somebody who is not heterosexual or not cisgender that isn't also an insult. Gay is an insult. Lesbian is an insult. Homosexual is an insult. There's just so much stigma that there just, there just isn't any language we can use to describe ourselves that isn't in the hands of, you know, somebody else, potentially an insult. But, you know, at the end of the day we have to identify as something. I have to have some kind of language to describe who I am or else I feel like I don't exist.

Seth (00:11:22):

So it's an important part of identity.

Justin (00:11:24):

I really like that too, because I think it also emphasizes the fact that, like, words are ... Just because a word is used in a way doesn't mean that it was the way that it was actually designed, you know. So like, when we talk about, like, you know, homosexual being, like, an insult, it's like, okay, yeah, but that's just a descriptor actually. It's the way the people used it that made it, the, the context an insult. And so perhaps queer is the same way, you know.

Seth (00:11:48):

I think that a lot of the time that, that people have push back against the term queer, it's, if it's a, a queer person talking about it, I think it's because of the trauma that they've probably endured either in childhood or, you know, like, maybe in, like, early adulthood from peers or parents or, like, anybody that they trusted, right, people that were supposed to be able to satisfy their needs, uh, and make them feel safe betrayed that trust. And I think that that's, that's, at least in the times that I've encountered people pushing back against the word queer, that's, that's been why has been that, that trauma.

Nikki (00:12:22):

The only, like, push back I've encountered with other, I'll use the word queer just because we're, they're talking about it, but the only push back I've encountered from other queer people is that it is a reclaimed slur. And I have hea-, I, uh, I have spoken with queer people who specifically do not use it because they do not wish to reclaim that. And I think there are a lot of, for lack of a better term, queer people who staunchly oppose that word because of its bad history. We have to remember that there's not one single term that, that feels right for everyone, but we can do our best by trying to define that term as what the intention behind it is, and what the intention behind its usage is.

Weston (00:13:16):

I think that a lot of people who identify as queer, and this definitely applies to myself, um, is that, you know, like, when I'm, when I'm around a lot of other gay men, I tend to identify as gay, but that doesn't feel 100% right to me. And so queer is this box that I can fall into that is comfortable because it's not absolute. I can be queer and that can mean any number of things, and so it's, it's almost a non-label. It is a bin for people who don't feel like they really fit in to other bins. Uh, but it's also an umbrella term that applies to anyone who is part of that LGBTQ-plus spectrum.

Weston (00:14:10):

We recorded that in mid-March, before Oregon officially went into quarantine in response to the COVID-19 epidemic. It's more than 150 days later and the world is a different place. I'm lucky enough to be working from home, which means that I rarely leave my home at all anymore. Like most people these days, my world has shrunk. Without the regiment of office hours, commutes, and social commitments, time has lost some of its meaning. From my house near the Marquam Bridge, the sound of rushing traffic on I-5 is always pressing in. Sometimes it mixes with the sound of my neighbors chatting and listening to music in their backyard. Our yards share a fence, but we are each an island. I don't know them.

Weston (00:14:57):

COVID has changed everything, including this podcast. Early on in the shutdown, our recording studio shut down, and it has yet to open, not that it matters much, because it's not safe to record in a studio right now anyway. We've been recording all of our interviews outside. We traded a clean studio sound for an ambient on-location sound.

Weston (00:15:25):

Today we are going to hear three relationship stories, one each from myself and Seth, Nikki, and Justin. You are also going to hear birds chirping, cars driving by, insects buzzing, planes flying overhead. And you might even hear a leaf-blower.

Weston (00:15:44):

First up is Justin's story. This is a story of queer friendship, a theme that we will be taking a deeper dive on in a future episode. Justin and Steven clicked right away and together found a community of friends and chosen family.

Steven (00:16:02):

I am Steven. I am 26 years old. I just moved to Portland two years ago from Fresno, California, met this awesome guy.

Weston (00:16:14):

How did y'all meet?

Justin (00:16:15):

Um, so we actually met at, um, CC's. And I was looking for a seat during a drag show, and there was one available seat left, and it was next to Steven.

Steven (00:16:28):

I think, like, right away, it was, like, some type of chemistry. So he, like, asked me to, if anyone was sitting by me. And I was like, "No, go ahead, you know. Sit down." (laughs)

Justin (00:16:37):

(laughs)

Steven (00:16:38):

Yeah, he went to go get a drink, and like, I played this little game on him when he came back. He was like-

Justin (00:16:43):

Because when I went to get a drink, I asked him to watch my jacket.

Steven (00:16:47):

Right.

Justin (00:16:47):

To save my spot, stranger.

Steven (00:16:52):

Mm-hmm (affirmative). (laughs)

Justin (00:16:52):

(laughs)

Steven (00:16:52):

Key word stranger. (laughs)

Justin (00:16:52):

(laughs)

Steven (00:16:55):

I think I took his jacket and put it under me. Try to be a goofy guy sometimes. Um, okay, all the time. (laughs)

Justin (00:17:01):

(laughs)

Steven (00:17:02):

I, and by the way, it was kind of, like, ballsy, but it was also like, I just felt some type of connection to where like, "He's gonna laugh at this," you know. I also didn't really have a lot, probably didn't have no friends in Portland at this time. And, uh, yeah, and after that, we just, like, laughed about it, thought it was, like, the funniest thing ever. (laughs)

Justin (00:17:22):

(laughs) Well first off, I think it's important to note that, like, whenever I go out, I always try to avoid, like, talking to new people. And so like, so he started, like, talking to me, I was just like, "Oh my god, this guy's talking to me."

Steven (00:17:33):

(laughs)

Justin (00:17:33):

And then, (laughs) but once he, like, played that trick, I was like, "Okay, I guess, like, I'll talk to him and, like, figure out his name or whatever." And then we started talking and, um, that's when Steven told me that he's from Fresno, California. And so I'm also from the Central Valley of California. Once I know that someone's from the Valley, then I'm like, "Okay, like this person, like, I can talk to them like they're a real person or whatever." And so, so we started talking and then that's when he was like, "Oh, like, you know, like, are you just gonna hang out here all night or whatever?" And I told him, I was like, "Oh, um," I was like, "I'm going to the other place so I, actually to dance."

Steven (00:18:06):

(laughs)

Justin (00:18:06):

And I was like, "Well, do you wanna, like, come with me?" Because I forget, you ... He told me he was new to the area, so I was like, "He probably doesn't know anyone. Like, he probably doesn't know what to do." And so I was like, "Yeah, do you want to come with me?" And he was like, "Yeah, totally." And (laughs) I'll never forget-

Steven (00:18:18):

(laughs)

Justin (00:18:19):

... because we were going to leave and he was, like, drinking this, like ... I think he was drinking a cider or something. And he was like, "Oh." He was like, "Um." He was like, "Oh, do you think I should, like, just like, take this with me?" And I was like, "Absolutely not. Are you kidding me?"

Steven (00:18:31):

(laughs)

Justin (00:18:31):

(laughs) Like, "Absolutely not." And so we go, we call a Lyft. We get into the Lyft. We're heading to Holocene. And then all of a sudden, like, he takes out this drink and starts drinking it. And I'm like, "So you took it anyway?" (laughs)

Steven (00:18:42):

(laughs)

Justin (00:18:42):

And I was like, "Well also, like, I want some." So like-

Steven (00:18:45):

(laughs)

Justin (00:18:45):

(laughs) So he, uh-

Steven (00:18:45):

We're gonna get along just fine. (laughs)

Justin (00:18:51):

(laughs) So we went to Holocene, and I was meeting up with some friends, actually from my DnD group. Uh, and so, yeah, and so, like, drank, partied, ended up going to an after-party afterwards. After-party kind of sort of turned into an orgy.

Steven (00:19:05):

(laughs)

Justin (00:19:05):

(laughs)

Nikki (00:19:05):

Like a DnD orgy or was it unrelated?

Justin (00:19:10):

(laughs)

Steven (00:19:12):

(laughs)

Justin (00:19:12):

Yeah, like-

Nikki (00:19:12):

(laughs)

Justin (00:19:13):

Yeah, this is really weird actually, which is, like, my experience doing s-, or first experience doing something like that with them. Well I didn't do much, but I was kind of like, "Oh, I didn't know this was what, on the agenda."

Steven (00:19:22):

(laughs) Yeah. Me neither.

Justin (00:19:26):

(laughs) Yeah. Yeah. So that's the night we met.

Steven (00:19:27):

Right. And then after that, I mean, it was like every weekend with Justin.

Justin (00:19:32):

Pretty much, yeah.

Steven (00:19:32):

And until this day. (laughs)

Justin (00:19:33):

Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah.

Steven (00:19:33):

Yeah.

Nikki (00:19:37):

When was ... What year did you meet?

Steven (00:19:39):

It's been, like, a year. Yeah.

Justin (00:19:42):

Yeah.

Steven (00:19:42):

It happened really quick.

Justin (00:19:43):

Yeah.

Steven (00:19:44):

We, like, just very much connected right away.

Justin (00:19:49):

Yeah.

Weston (00:19:50):

What were some of your, like, first impressions of each other?

Steven (00:19:54):

Yeah. I, I really just, like, felt something with Justin. It was really, like, very safe and very, like, homeish. Um, yeah. (laughs)

Justin (00:20:05):

(laughs)

Steven (00:20:05):

What are you doing to me?

Justin (00:20:05):

(laughs)

Steven (00:20:05):

Making me cry! (laughs)

Justin (00:20:05):

(laughs)

Steven (00:20:10):

Um, yeah, and, uh, you know, I think another thing to say is that, uh, our friendship has really never been sexual either.

Justin (00:20:21):

Right.

Steven (00:20:21):

Which, um, I think, like, me talking to my family and talking to certain friends, they're like ... I post Justin all the time on social media, and then, "Oh, are you guys having sex?" I'm like, "Actually, we're not, since you must know." (laughs)

Justin (00:20:36):

(laughs)

Steven (00:20:37):

You know, um, but it's always been, like, like, a safe zone. Like, you know, it was, like, in the eyes. It was, you know, in the way he talked to me, in the way he laughed at my jokes and got my weird jokes. (laughs)

Justin (00:20:50):

(laughs)

Steven (00:20:54):

The way he didn't get mad about me taking a drink. (laughs) I was like, "Oh, he's down." (laughs)

Justin (00:20:54):

(laughs)

Steven (00:21:00):

"Oh, he parties." (laughs)

Justin (00:21:02):

(laughs) Yeah, it's funny you say that, because like, I think that's, like, really important to me in general with, like, friends that I make is that, it's gonna sound weird, but like, I do like to hang out with people who, like, who know how to party, like, who know how to, like, have a good time, right. And then also, like, um, authenticity is incredibly important to me. Um, I'm not really interested in, like, people who are, like, playing games basically I guess is what I'll say. And so, and Steven was very much not that. Like, our relationship has always just been, like, "This is who we are. Like, this is what we're doing. Like, this is what we're talking about," and not, like, bullshit.

Steven (00:21:35):

I love you.

Weston (00:21:35):

(laughs)

Justin (00:21:35):

I love you too. (laughs)

Steven (00:21:35):

(laughs)

Nikki (00:21:39):

I actually have a question for you, Steven. You mentioned that you really enjoy that your friendship is not, or your connection is not sexual. Um, have you found that with other relationships and connections, a lot of people do enter that wanting a sexual experience?

Steven (00:21:59):

Um, you know when somebody's like, has a little, maybe sometimes, like, has a little crush on you or whatever. Um, but with me and Justin, it was like, um, we would sleep in the same bed, um, and would just like, "Hey," like, be here, like, you know. And it was just, it was safe, you know, and it was comfy and it was, like, a real friendship, you know.

Nikki (00:22:29):

Yeah.

Steven (00:22:29):

Um, may not make sense to what you were saying.

Nikki (00:22:32):

No, I think-

Steven (00:22:32):

(laughs)

Justin (00:22:32):

(laughs)

Nikki (00:22:33):

What I'm hear, no, what I'm hearing you say is, like, you never had to worry about any ulterior motives from Justin.

Steven (00:22:39):

Yeah.

Nikki (00:22:40):

Like, you always knew that it was, this is an intimate friendship physically, but it's not-

Steven (00:22:44):

Right.

Nikki (00:22:45):

... crossing that boundary.

Steven (00:22:46):

Yeah. It was, like, really, like, uh, it was like family, kind of. It was like, uh ... For example, last night, um ... We have a friend who lives down the street from me. And, um, I was tired from the beach. I was like, "I'm gonna go home and go to sleep." And then I called him, I was like, "Hey, uh," I was like, kind of had a little bit of anxiety, so I was like, "You want to come over and spend the night with me?"

Justin (00:23:12):

(laughs)

Nikki (00:23:12):

(laughs)

Steven (00:23:13):

You know, and, um, and for a second I was like ... I do have, like, this guy that I'll, like, cuddle with sometimes. I was like, "I don't want him over here." (laughs)

Nikki (00:23:22):

(laughs)

Steven (00:23:22):

You know, I was like, "I want my friend." (laughs)

Justin (00:23:24):

Right. I think kind of too, like, a little bit closer to, like, to your question, it's like, so, it's interesting too, because once Steven and I became friends, we kind of, like, have started and grown this, like, circle of friends. Um, and so ... And it's interesting because I do hear, like, some people from the gay community are like, "Oh my gosh, it's always about sex," and things like that. But like, our group of friends, we're all, like, we're all gay and most of us are cis, but there isn't any, like, sexual dynamic with any of our friends, for the most part.

Weston (00:23:58):

What has that been like having, like, a, a circle of gay friends for the first time?

Steven (00:24:02):

Oh, it's been really, um, actually amazing. Um, what I love the most about Portland is that, like, I have this group of friends that are, like, gay, and like, they basically feel like family. It's just very, like, sheltering. It's very, like, nice.

Justin (00:24:21):

Yeah. I do feel that there's like, because this is also, like, my first, like, group of just all gay friends for the most part. And I think that there's just, like, this nice aspect of, like, getting to be 100% of yourself, that you just can't quite do with, like, straight friends and things like that. Like, no matter how close you are, there are just some things, like, you know-

Steven (00:24:42):

You can't talk about.

Justin (00:24:43):

Yeah.

Steven (00:24:43):

Yeah.

Justin (00:24:44):

You're not gonna, (laughs) you're not gonna talk to your straight friend about, like, uh, like, preparing to have sex if you're bottoming.

Steven (00:24:48):

Right.

Justin (00:24:48):

Like, you know?

Steven (00:24:48):

Right.

Nikki (00:24:48):

(laughs)

Justin (00:24:49):

[crosstalk 00:24:49] that's just something, you know, you're not gonna talk about. With your gay friends you can be like, talk about different techniques and, "Oh my gosh, actually I bought this thing. You should try that out."

Steven (00:24:58):

Right. (laughs)

Nikki (00:24:59):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Justin (00:24:59):

You know, and so there's just, like, this deeper level you get to-

Steven (00:25:03):

Yes.

Justin (00:25:03):

... just be in all the time.

Steven (00:25:04):

Yes.

Justin (00:25:05):

Which I think is really cool.

Nikki (00:25:05):

There's something really powerful about being in a group of people who you know understand you at, like, a core level and an identity level, where you don't have to explain it, you don't have to worry about feeling unsafe around them when you talk about that. Like, you're on that exact same level. I, I feel the same way. I find it to be, like, just so great to be able to go to my friend and be like, "My UTI was fucking nasty."

Justin (00:25:32):

Right, uh-huh (affirmative).

Nikki (00:25:33):

And I'll talk to it, I'll talk to my brother about things like that, because he's also queer. So I, I have that, but any other family member or straight friend, it's kind of an off-limits topic, not because that's been established, but because I know that I have to go through all this labor to get them to understand-

Justin (00:25:51):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki (00:25:52):

... because a lot of my experience and all of ours are identity-based experiences. And I, I agree with you. I think there's this awesome, like, sheltering, like, safe, just inherently when you walk in the door you feel a lot safer. What do you feel like you've learned, like, your biggest lesson from each other has been?

Justin (00:26:15):

So, uh, Steven likes to really often, like, talk about, like, heart. Like, that's a word that you use very often.

Steven (00:26:21):

Yeah.

Justin (00:26:21):

Um, which is interesting, because like, I feel like that's, like, not necessarily a word that people throw around all the time. And so I think that-

Steven (00:26:27):

Heart?

Justin (00:26:27):

Heart, yeah.

Steven (00:26:27):

What do you mean?

Justin (00:26:28):

Uh, so I think, like, my biggest lesson from you, from Steven, is, um, to think of things from a more emotional place more often, um, particularly within, like, interpersonal, like, communication, like being more thoughtful and intentional about, like, taking the heart into consideration.

Steven (00:26:48):

Yeah, the biggest lesson I think I learned from Justin honestly was just, like, um, me being in my feelings around people and just being, like, aware, more aware and more, like, oh, like, eye-opening, you know, uh, to things that are going on around me. And I'm still learning from Justin every single day, seriously, because like, I call my mom, I'm like, you know, I'm like l- learning, teaching her while Justin is teaching me. And it's like, it's like an everyday thing. Like, I've learned something every day, you know, from Justin. It's nice too, because sometimes, like, I'll be like ... We'll be having, like, these conversations with our friends, and I'll be like, "What is going on?" And Justin's like, "This, Steven."

Justin (00:27:28):

(laughs)

Nikki (00:27:28):

(laughs)

Steven (00:27:30):

You know, he's, like, really one to be like, you know, explain it. And I don't feel like I've ever been able to actually be like that with somebody who's like, "Oh, I have patience for you," you know, like, "This is what they're saying," you know. And it's like, oh, well rather me not being part of the conversation, he's, like, making me understand, you know. Yeah. (laughs) And that's really, like, where, um, my heart really goes out to Justin, because it's like, uh, I would think that would take a lot, you know, for somebody just to do that for anybody, you know. When I first moved here, like, my cousin, he was like, "Bubba," he was like, "How do you have all these friends?" I was like, "Well, because I have one good friend." (laughs)

Justin (00:28:15):

(laughs)

Weston (00:28:15):

(laughs)

Steven (00:28:15):

You know, and it's like, we've grown, like, you know. And like, it's like, it's like this family now that, like, we have. We've spent one Christmas together.

Justin (00:28:27):

Yeah.

Steven (00:28:28):

Yeah.

Justin (00:28:29):

Yeah.

Steven (00:28:29):

And it was like, this is my first Christmas away from, like, my family. And it's like I was with my family this year, because I was with him.

Weston (00:28:38):

Up next we have Nikki. Nikki tells the story of their lifelong journey to self-acceptance, a journey that starts in Iowa and winds up in Portland. This is a story about Nikki's relationship with themselves.

Nikki (00:28:57):

So I was in the bathroom thinking, as, uh, as one does, and I was thinking about the conversation we were just having about how we're wanting to ask people in this show ho- how did you meet, how did you meet each other. And we were thinking about how we would ask that to somebody who was talking on their own. And I actually think that's a really powerful question to ask someone how did you meet yourself, how did you meet who you are today, or how did you come to that. And I think for me, uh, I'm from the Midwest. I'm from a city of 80,000 people in Iowa called Iowa City. And it's not very queer there. There's one gay club in an alley called Studio 13. But we did have a queen on RuPaul's Drag Race.

Seth (00:29:55):

Hey.

Justin (00:29:55):

Yes.

Nikki (00:29:55):

Shout-out to Sasha Bell. She is the hometown queen hero. But I think not having access to opportunities when it comes to or resources when it comes to identities is often, it slows your progression. And I, I was engaged when I was a teenager. And I was engaged to somebody who was in their 20s. And I, I graduated high school. I stayed in Iowa for college, because I was engaged. And that ended, and it ended in a very difficult way. And I was trying to leave, and I just happened to kind of stumble into Portland on a whim, because a friend of mine in my hometown was coming here to canvas for the Human Rights Campaign. And I came here being very unhealthy, my version of unhealthy. I wasn't eating things that made me feel good. I was a very bad cigarette smoker. And I was, I like, grew up playing sports all my life and I really liked fitness and I loved working out and I had kind of gotten into this lifestyle that wasn't serving me in the ways that I liked to be served. And I was miserable. And I also didn't even know what the word trans meant. I was, I identified as a woman, a lesbian. I only liked women, cis women, period, that's it. And I felt like I was really, like, closed-minded as a person.

Nikki (00:31:30):

I was a barista at Starbucks at Lloyd Center. I was trying to go to school, but I didn't know what I wanted to do. I wasn't making enough money to pay rent. I was stealing food from Starbucks so that I could eat something. And I was just, like, this mess. And on top of that, I was trying to figure out who I was. And I don't know, like, so-, you know, sometimes, a lot of people like to say, "I woke up one day and shit was, like, something changed within me and I knew I had to go work hard to become this better version of myself," or some shit. But I don't think it was that for me at all.

Nikki (00:32:09):

I think if I had to whittle down who I am today to a pivotal moment where I can look back and say that's where everything shifted, it would be this relationship. It was really, like, transformational for me. And I went into this relationship with this person feeling on top of the world and like I had just ... Like, "This is it. This is the relationship." And then all this shit happened that hurt me and traumatized me. And it, it ... I felt like I had got chewed up and spit out a totally different person. And I think that was the moment where I woke up and I realized that I was allowed myself to be steamrolled. And I, and I came out of that knowing that I, if I wasn't going to start saying no to things, that I was not gonna make it, because I was, I was depressed, and I am like a person who has ... I'm an anxious person and my anxiety will, like ... It's like a snowball. As soon as something gets into my head, it's like I can't get it out. And so that combined with depression is not a very good mix.

Nikki (00:33:19):

You often hear about people who experience relationships like this, where it's like, "I went in as one person and I came out completely different," and that's super true for me. And I went in introverted. Like, people were very important to me, but I wasn't important to myself. And I wasn't a writer. And I had stage fright and, like, all this other shit. And then I come out being this person who loves being onstage and also consistently trying to be just better and, uh, improve. And like, and that sounds so stupid, because I'm also one of those people that's like, I ... The whole PMA thing drives me fucking nuts, because most of the people who are like, "PMA, positive mental attitude," are miserable. So yeah, I, I don't know.

Nikki (00:34:03):

I think that like, Portland is interesting. It's ... My gut wants to say that Portland is amazing, but I don't feel that today. And that's just because the more you live somewhere and you get to know it, it's just like a friend. Like, Portland's been my best friend for eight years now. And I have over the course of a handful of years been seeing all the nasty sides of Portland, and the, like, oppressive sides and the, the very white sides. And I feel it's important to note that, but I also feel it's important that Portland totally changed my life.

Nikki (00:34:40):

I'm very lucky to have this career that I love, at a brand agency as a project manager. And I am in a long-term relationship with the best person I've ever met, who I'm totally gonna marry and do all of the monogamous gay things with. Sometimes I'm, I'm like, I think about who I am today. And this is the most stable I've been my entire life. And the word stability is, is kind of on a spectrum. You know, stability for me means a job that I'm actually in love with, a long-term partner who I haven't grown out of or who hasn't grown out of me, and, um, a housing situation that is comfortable and not problematic. Does that make, d- d- did that make sense?

Seth (00:35:32):

Oh yeah. Absolutely.

Nikki (00:35:33):

Okay, great. (laughs)

Seth (00:35:34):

It does make sense. Do you think that you've kind of figured out a balance between, um, wanting to take care of yourself, um, but not allowing that to turn into the only thing you care about?

Nikki (00:35:48):

I, historically I'm the caregiver and am taking care of everyone else before I take care of myself, especially in, in romantic partnerships. And I think once you get out of that, the natural progression is to kind of swing the other way, like way too far. (laughs) And I definitely had, uh, a good period of time where I felt like I was just, like, heads down, blinders on, just doing my own thing. But I also think that you're missing out on a lot when you do that. And I, I am one of those people who firmly believes, like, you attract what you put out. The more and more I kind of got toward the middle of that, and a lot of that is, it's saying no to things and prioritizing myself, and then it's also being selfless and sacrificing things to make sure your friends are comfortable. And as I got more and more into the middle of that, I noticed that people were just kind of like sloughing off. And then the ones who remained were the ones who also prioritized being in the center of that with me, which has made it a lot easier to stay in the middle, because we're all like-minded individuals in that aspect.

Justin (00:37:04):

I have a question for you. How much of, like ... So throughout this transformational period, how much of who you were before, uh, do you think was because of kind of, like, outside, like, pressure and influence?

Nikki (00:37:18):

A lot of it was, uh, I feel like influenced by my family, in particular my mom. My mom and I ha- have had a really rough relationship up until just a few years ago. And I see a lot of my relationship with my mom in that relationship that kind of was a turning point for me. And that's not necessarily an outside influence, but it was v-, it was a huge influence that I realized pretty quickly I had to figure out a way to not be influenced by that. Um, when it comes to my relationship with myself, I think that it ... The outside influence has ... It's been kind of backwards. It's not what an outside influence has done to me, but rather it's shown me what I don't want. And what I don't want is, uh, any sort of connection with any person that is not 50/50.

Justin (00:38:21):

Totally get that.

Weston (00:38:22):

I'm wondering, as you've been sort of building this relationship with yourself over the years, like, what kind of, what kind of conversations were you having with yourself to, um, like, grow as a person and to, and to grow into yourself more?

Nikki (00:38:36):

That's a really good question. I, I was doing stuff constantly. I would write on my mirrors with dry erase marker. Every year I have a motto, since 20- ... 2017 was the first year I did a motto. And I was dedicating ... I was like, "Everything I do has to hit this motto." And it's all like ... "Bow down to no one" was one motto. Like, "I am not going to make decisions that force me to, like, seriously sacrifice myself for anything."

Seth (00:39:06):

No gods, no kings.

Nikki (00:39:07):

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Seth (00:39:10):

Um, what do you think your favorite thing about your relationship with yourself is?

Nikki (00:39:17):

Oh my god. My favorite thing about myself, that's a really good question.

Seth (00:39:21):

It's a, it's a really hard question.

Nikki (00:39:23):

Yeah. I think that, like, my, my favorite thing about myself is that I know with certainty that I could lose everything I have right now and be fucking fine, and still know that, like, I'm a bad ass, I'm, I'm gonna be all right, it's gonna suck for a while, and then something else will happen and it'll be whatever. That's the life that I want to be able to, like, build, continue to build, is this life that, like, I could have everything in the world, but I'm gonna be totally cool if I lose it. And that's how I hope to live out the rest of my life.

Seth (00:39:58):

That's incredible.

Weston (00:39:59):

So if you lost your relationship with your partner and your job, um, and, like, your current living situation, what's something that you would have that, like, you couldn't get taken away from, that's just part of your relationship with yourself?

Nikki (00:40:14):

I think, hm, I just know, I know that I'll bounce back. Even, like, being devastated, because like, don't get me wrong, losing my relationship with my partner, my house, my job, whatever, would be devastating. If my cat died, I'd be devastated. But I also know for a fact that the one thing I can rely on is my ability to bounce back. And within that are branches like resourcefulness and hustle and all this other shit. And so if I lost everything tomorrow, I'd call my best friend, I'd probably move in with her and start looking for a new job. You know, I'd do all this other stuff. And I would also allow myself the time to feel sad without letting it consume me. I think that's a very important aspect of healing from anything is, like, being sad but don't let the whole, don't let it take you over.

Weston (00:41:10):

Is there anything that you would tell your, like, past self, like, any advice you would want to give who you used to be?

Nikki (00:41:18):

No. I think things would be different if I, if I had ha-, if I had any different advice than I ... Sorry to anyone who's like, (laughs) "Give me advice on being happier."

Weston (00:41:31):

(laughs)

Nikki (00:41:31):

No, I think if, if I could think of one thing, just for the sake of thinking of one thing, value your experiences. Understand that all of your experiences are very important to whoever you're gonna be there. And whoever you want to be, like, there is going to be something inside of you that you just haven't found yet to get you there.

Weston (00:41:55):

Last up, we have my story, but really it's Seth's story too. When we met, Seth and I didn't know if we were lovers or friends or brothers. I think we knew there was something between us, but finding out exactly what that was took a lot of trial and error, a lot of patience, and a lot of love.

Nikki (00:42:18):

So I think the, the burning question on everyone's minds is how did you meet?

Seth (00:42:23):

Um, so I moved here, uh, three years ago, um, with my now-ex. And we, we were together for about, I don't know, like, three or four months after moving here together. Uh, and when we split, um, I hopped on Grindr pretty quickly. Um, and once, uh, I was on Grindr, I had noticed a profile that seemed out of my range, um, and eventually just kind of like shot my shot and you responded. Um, and so we met up and I think we hooked up pretty much immediately.

Weston (00:43:09):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Seth (00:43:10):

Um, and-

Weston (00:43:11):

That's why we met up.

Seth (00:43:12):

Yeah, we met up to hook up.

Weston (00:43:13):

Busted.

Nikki (00:43:13):

(laughs)

Weston (00:43:13):

Yeah. Yeah.

Seth (00:43:14):

Um, well, no, we ... I don't know. Yeah, we met up for a hookup first and then-

Weston (00:43:20):

We had been chatting for a little bit, and so it wasn't, like, automatic. When we met, I had, like, just been fired from the job that I had at the time.

Seth (00:43:29):

Oh, right, yeah.

Weston (00:43:30):

Um, and kind of had a lot of time on my hands.

Seth (00:43:33):

Yeah.

Weston (00:43:33):

And also, you were 22 years old or 21 years old when we met?

Seth (00:43:39):

22.

Weston (00:43:40):

22, okay.

Seth (00:43:43):

Or y-, 21.

Weston (00:43:44):

21?

Seth (00:43:45):

I was still 21, yeah.

Weston (00:43:46):

And I had, um, I had a rule at the time-

Seth (00:43:47):

(laughs)

Justin (00:43:47):

(laughs)

Weston (00:43:48):

... that I was not-

Seth (00:43:51):

No babies.

Weston (00:43:51):

... going to go on dates-

Justin (00:43:52):

With babies anymore.

Weston (00:43:53):

... or I was not going to make friends with anyone below 24.

Justin (00:43:55):

(laughs)

Seth (00:43:56):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Weston (00:43:56):

Um, but we were talking and there was just something about the way we were relating to each other that I was just like, "Well, what the hell."

Seth (00:44:05):

"This, this is working."

Weston (00:44:06):

"Let's just do it."

Seth (00:44:07):

Yeah.

Weston (00:44:07):

And, um, we met up and we hooked up and-

Seth (00:44:13):

We continued to hook up. We hooked up for, like, I don't know, like, two or three times.

Weston (00:44:20):

I think it was just one more time.

Seth (00:44:20):

Oh, really? It was just the second time?

Weston (00:44:21):

I think so.

Seth (00:44:21):

Okay. I don't remember. (laughs)

Weston (00:44:22):

But I don't remember exactly.

Seth (00:44:24):

Right. Um-

Weston (00:44:25):

But we also would, like-

Seth (00:44:27):

We had-

Weston (00:44:27):

We were talking a lot and-

Seth (00:44:28):

Yeah, and we had watched, like, a lot of movies together and we, you know ... Like, you invited me to your Magic: The Gathering group.

Weston (00:44:36):

Yeah.

Seth (00:44:37):

And that's kind of how, (laughs) how I got into the friend group.

Weston (00:44:40):

I had this conviction when I first met you that ... We had been talking about, um, like, some, like, pretty nerdy stuff. And I had this group of friends at the time where we were, like, once a week we would get together and we would play Magic: The Gathering and just sort of ... Like, I actually wasn't that into that game in particular, but it was just a really lovely way and an excuse to see all my favorite people once a week.

Seth (00:45:02):

Yeah. It was, it was a good time to, to just kind of like be around your friends.

Weston (00:45:06):

Yeah.

Seth (00:45:06):

And like, those, those, that, those few hours that we were all hanging out were always a, a blast.

Weston (00:45:12):

Yeah. And I just felt this, I felt this conviction early on. I was like, "Seth belongs here."

Seth (00:45:18):

Which-

Weston (00:45:18):

Like, "Seth belongs with these people. He belongs with my friends. Uh, Seth's, my friends should be Seth's friends." Um, and I was just like, "Come on, Seth."

Seth (00:45:28):

(laughs) And it was, it was nice, because I didn't have friends here.

Weston (00:45:32):

Yeah.

Seth (00:45:32):

I didn't have, um ... Like, I had a, a couple of work acquaintances that I just hadn't really gotten close to yet. Uh, and I have since kind of built friendships with them, but I didn't ... I mean, like, my ex was not particularly a social person. Um, and so a lot of my time was spent with him in our apartment and nothing else. Uh, like, I would leave to go to work. And so I didn't really have much of an opportunity to build any social relationships. Um, and so to have somebody that was just, like, so quickly allowing me into their inner circle was, like, groundbreaking. Like, I, it was something that I didn't know I needed but quickly found out I did.

Weston (00:46:18):

But yeah, I remember, um, pretty early on, probably within, like, the first month we had started hanging out, because we had started hanging out pretty frequently right away, you came to me and you were just like, "By the way, I think that we should just be friends. I don't think that we should be having sex anymore."

Seth (00:46:36):

Yeah.

Weston (00:46:37):

Um ...

Seth (00:46:38):

I remember feeling really guilty about it too.

Weston (00:46:40):

(laughs)

Seth (00:46:40):

(laughs) I, like, felt bad. I was like, "I ... " Like, because I'd never really had a relationship, like an interpersonal relationship that I could just kind of like speak openly and be like, "This is what I need. This is what I need to be getting out of this relationship." And so I remember being scared, because I was also worried that that would mean that you wouldn't want to be my friend.

Weston (00:47:01):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Seth (00:47:02):

Um, and obviously, you know, like, I'm glad that that wasn't the case.

Weston (00:47:08):

Yeah. I mean, I was glad that you had brought it up. And I had been, I had been sort of thinking the same thing. Like, I just, I just don't think that sexual connection was where it was at for us.

Seth (00:47:17):

No. No.

Weston (00:47:18):

Um-

Seth (00:47:19):

We work way better as friends I think.

Weston (00:47:21):

Yeah.

Seth (00:47:21):

Yeah.

Weston (00:47:22):

Totally. I'm glad that you, like, set that boundary, like, early on, because it was one that probably needed to be stated just because of how we met.

Seth (00:47:30):

Yeah.

Weston (00:47:31):

And like, na- navigating that transition between, like, oh, we met on Grindr, under, like, pretty sexual pretenses, and then to just have that kind of clarity, like, moment where it's like, "That's, that's not where this relationship is going."

Seth (00:47:43):

Yeah. A lot of the friends in that group were kind of confused that we had kind of, like, in their eyes, taken a step back.

Weston (00:47:54):

There's so much pressure I think for a relationship to go through sort of like a set of steps. And I often, like, even today, like, I often sometimes, I have these pretty, like, deep insecurities and doubts about my and your relationship, because I feel very close to you, and I would say that the feeling that I have for you is a big feeling, and that feeling is love.

Seth (00:48:16):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Weston (00:48:16):

But it's not romantic love.

Seth (00:48:18):

Yeah.

Weston (00:48:18):

Um, and it's not sexual love. And sometimes I'm just like, in my mind I'm like, "That makes it not real."

Seth (00:48:24):

Yeah, it's so easy to write that feeling off as just not being this, this thing that we can depend on, this thing that we can really, like entrust ourselves to, to feel-

Weston (00:48:35):

Right.

Seth (00:48:35):

... if that makes sense.

Weston (00:48:36):

And I do ... Like, I don't ... Like, you've met my parents.

Seth (00:48:39):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Weston (00:48:40):

We've had dinner with my parents.

Seth (00:48:41):

Yeah. I've met your, your siblings too.

Weston (00:48:43):

You've met my siblings. I've always introduced you as like, "My friend, Seth."

Seth (00:48:45):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Weston (00:48:46):

Um, and that's accurate, but I, like, that's, but I don't think that that communicates to my family, like-

Seth (00:48:52):

No.

Weston (00:48:53):

... what our relationship is really.

Seth (00:48:54):

Yeah. Well, and I mean, like, I think we've kind of used the term platonic partnership before-

Weston (00:49:00):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Seth (00:49:00):

... just because that's, that's kind of like the easiest way to convey that concept to people that aren't immediately familiar with it.

Weston (00:49:08):

Right. Yeah. And that, that feels also, like, kind of heavy too.

Seth (00:49:13):

It, it, yeah, and well-

Weston (00:49:13):

Like-

Seth (00:49:14):

And that's the other problem, because it's just like a little bit ... There needs to be, like, a middle ground between friendship and platonic partnership, because, like, while I do love you, I, like ... That's ... People hear the word partnership and they, they start to assign all of these other-

Weston (00:49:31):

Right.

Seth (00:49:31):

... emotions to it.

Nikki (00:49:32):

There's this big, enormous, problematic societal expectation that if you are meeting somebody in a romantic or sexual setting, you're either going to progress into a partnership, a romantic partnership, or you'll be nothing ever again.

Seth (00:49:51):

Yeah.

Nikki (00:49:51):

And I think with that expectation, you often miss out on connections that were destined to be really beautiful friendships-

Seth (00:49:59):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nikki (00:49:59):

... or platonic partnerships or whatever. I have had the same conversation with a lot of people that are like, "Why are you friends with so many exes?" And it's because why would I miss out on the opportunity to have a connection with somebody just because it didn't work, work out romantically.

Seth (00:50:16):

Yeah.

Nikki (00:50:17):

And so, uh, um, to ask a question from that, I'm wondering if you two, when you try to describe your connection to each other, if you feel like the people you're describing it to are kind of judging you or expecting you to be something that you're not?

Weston (00:50:34):

Like, I thi-, I would say maybe the first year we were friends, um, every now and then, like, one of, like, people who are close to us, one of our group of friends would, would say something to the effect that, like, that, that made it clear that they thought that you and I were sleeping together.

Seth (00:50:48):

Yeah.

Weston (00:50:48):

And I'd have to be like, "No, that's not happening."

Seth (00:50:50):

Right. (laughs)

Weston (00:50:51):

Like, "By the way, no." (laughs)

Seth (00:50:52):

We're allowed to just be friends.

Weston (00:50:54):

For the first year, we just really meshed.

Seth (00:50:59):

Yeah.

Weston (00:50:59):

And like, I don't think we had any conflict between us-

Seth (00:51:03):

No.

Weston (00:51:03):

... for a long, long time.

Seth (00:51:05):

Literally, yeah, like, the first entire year-

Weston (00:51:06):

Um-

Seth (00:51:06):

... I don't think we ever had a conflict.

Weston (00:51:09):

We bickered a lot, I think, but I think in retrospect, like, it didn't feel like bickering to me in the moment.

Seth (00:51:14):

No. It was like pushing buttons.

Weston (00:51:15):

It just felt like great fun.

Seth (00:51:16):

Yeah.

Weston (00:51:17):

Um, but I think a lot of our friends were like, "Oh, Seth and Weston are, like, bickering again."

Seth (00:51:21):

Yeah. (laughs)

Weston (00:51:22):

And like having this fight.

Seth (00:51:25):

I never really realized I'd be that person. Like, you know, like, because I've always, I've seen that in other, in other people, where it's like, "Are y'all okay?"

Weston (00:51:33):

(laughs)

Seth (00:51:33):

Like, "Do we need to, like ... Do I need to call someone? Like, what's going on?" (laughs) Um-

Weston (00:51:38):

We were always just having good fun.

Seth (00:51:39):

Yeah, like, and we, we poke fun at each other all the time.

Weston (00:51:42):

Yeah.

Seth (00:51:42):

We push each other's buttons and, and that's ... That just works for our friendship.

Weston (00:51:48):

I think at some point though, like, our friendship got deeper, and like a- at one point, like, that bickering became, like, real.

Seth (00:51:56):

Yeah. I think that we, we both kind of hit a point where there was, like, there was stuff that we needed to address, you know. Like, I think that we, we kind of ended up needing to have those hard conversations because the, the poking fun, that kind of lost its pizzazz, you know. Like, it didn't, it didn't have the same humor behind it.

Weston (00:52:19):

Yeah.

Seth (00:52:19):

And so we ... Yeah. Like there are definitely ... There have been times where we've, we've actually had, like, non-physical fights.

Weston (00:52:27):

(laughs)

Seth (00:52:29):

So ... (laughs) I feel the need to specify non-physical.

Weston (00:52:30):

Right.

Seth (00:52:30):

(laughs)

Justin (00:52:30):

(laughs)

Weston (00:52:31):

I think it ... I think the first time that we had, like, an actual argument was sometime last summer.

Seth (00:52:39):

Which what do you have in mind? What are you thinking of?

Weston (00:52:42):

I think there were a few things that happened last summer that sort of changed our relationship a little bit.

Seth (00:52:48):

Oh. Yeah.

Nikki (00:52:50):

So who fucked up?

Justin (00:52:50):

Right, yeah, uh-huh (affirmative). (laughs)

Nikki (00:52:51):

(laughs)

Seth (00:52:54):

I mean, both of us, to an extent. (laughs)

Weston (00:52:56):

I feel like I bear a lot of responsibility. Um-

Seth (00:52:59):

Um-

Weston (00:53:00):

It's just like, it's just super, it's just, like, a classic, like, gay, messy, queer, messy situation. We have a friend who broke up with their long-term partner, uh, and then came to me for, um, like, some comfort. And then over the course of, like, a few weeks, me and that friend kind of started dating, um, just for, like, a couple, couple weeks last summer.

Seth (00:53:28):

Yeah, and, and I didn't know about it. Um, I have, like, a, a pretty drastic fear of, um, of being kind of, like, edged out of, of friendships. Uh, it's happened to me, like, four, four times now, uh, in like, some of my most important friendships in my life. Um, and so it's, it's very much like a, a visceral kind of feeling that I get in, in my gut. And the way that I found out about it was, um, kind of the thing that made it so stressful.

Weston (00:53:58):

We were both coming to you for advice about something that was happening to the two of us.

Seth (00:54:01):

Between the two of them, yeah.

Weston (00:54:03):

And yeah, you, and you puzzled it together.

Seth (00:54:04):

And so I put it together, and like, it's not something that I, I don't care, I don't care that you guys were, like, dating. Um, but the fact that you didn't think to, to tell me. And this feels selfish, um, to, like, talk about and think about in retrospect, because that doesn't involve me. Um-

Weston (00:54:25):

It involved you pretty intimately I think. Like, it was-

Seth (00:54:27):

Yeah.

Weston (00:54:28):

... two of your friends and I mean-

Seth (00:54:29):

That's true.

Weston (00:54:30):

Yeah.

Seth (00:54:31):

Um-

Weston (00:54:32):

But it was, it was funny, because I think it was the very first time that I'd ever seen you angry.

Seth (00:54:38):

Yeah. That-

Weston (00:54:39):

I-

Seth (00:54:39):

It's not something that happens often.

Weston (00:54:40):

I'd never seen you angry before, and I have this vivid memory of, um, it was a DnD day, because we all played DnD together.

Seth (00:54:46):

Yeah.

Weston (00:54:47):

Um, and I was ... We, we always, we had this ritual of on Sundays, me and you would go get breakfast together.

Seth (00:54:54):

Uh-huh (affirmative).

Weston (00:54:54):

And that was just sort of like you and I's sort of, like, quality time as friends.

Seth (00:54:58):

Yeah.

Weston (00:54:59):

And then we would drive to DnD together, um, and then play DnD with our friends. Um, and I was expecting you to come over, and I didn't know that you had, like, placed these ideas together.

Seth (00:55:10):

Yeah.

Weston (00:55:11):

Um, and, um, I was, like, sitting on the floor of my bedroom. And you, um, let yourself into the house, as you often did. And you just, like, burst into my bedroom. Um, and I don't remember what you said, but you were just, like, obviously mad. Um, and I was so startled, because I'd never seen you angry before in, like, the year and I have that I met you, that I just started cracking up.

Seth (00:55:35):

Yeah, you, you lost it laughing.

Weston (00:55:36):

I laughed.

Justin (00:55:36):

(laughs)

Seth (00:55:36):

(laughs)

Nikki (00:55:40):

It's such a, it's such a valid reaction.

Weston (00:55:42):

(laughs)

Nikki (00:55:43):

People do that a lot. And also it's, like, the worst to be angry and someone starts laughing. (laughs)

Weston (00:55:48):

Well-

Seth (00:55:49):

It definitely made me-

Justin (00:55:50):

Right.

Seth (00:55:50):

It definitely made me more mad. (laughs)

Justin (00:55:50):

(laughs)

Weston (00:55:53):

I also, I also knew immediately that I was in trouble.

Seth (00:55:54):

Yeah.

Weston (00:55:54):

And I knew exactly why I was in trouble, and I felt really terrible. We also ... Our friend was also carpooling with us that day.

Seth (00:56:01):

Yeah.

Weston (00:56:02):

And so all three of us were gonna have-

Seth (00:56:03):

That was-

Weston (00:56:03):

... to be in a car-

Seth (00:56:04):

Too much. I, like-

Weston (00:56:05):

Yeah.

Seth (00:56:05):

I remember being pissed-

Weston (00:56:08):

Yeah.

Seth (00:56:09):

... that I had to go and have both of you in my car for an extended period of time and just, like, not lose my shit, and because like-

Weston (00:56:18):

Then play DnD together for the next, like, four hours.

Seth (00:56:20):

And then I had to, I had to drive them home. (laughs)

Justin (00:56:24):

(laughs)

Seth (00:56:24):

Afterward. And like, I, I'm, like, I'm not ... I don't know. Like I was saying, like, I'm not a really angry person typically. And like, when I do get angry, it's not like ... I'm not like a violent person. And like, I don't know, like, and I know I can be kind of intimidating in those situations though. Like, I don't, I don't know if we've really talked. Like, how did you feel at that point?

Weston (00:56:45):

I thought that you were so valid.

Seth (00:56:48):

(laughs)

Weston (00:56:48):

And I felt like ... I mean, I feel, I feel kind of bad still about how that happened, because it was just sort of ... It was a really messy situation for everybody involved, and I think all three of us kind of have hurt feelings about it, um, because it really didn't ... It also didn't last very long. Um-

Seth (00:57:07):

Yeah.

Weston (00:57:08):

And it was over pretty quickly. And, and we're all, we're all still friends.

Seth (00:57:13):

Yeah, like we still, we have, like, a group chat between the three of us, and we-

Weston (00:57:17):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Seth (00:57:17):

You know, like, we're, we're fine.

Weston (00:57:19):

Yeah.

Seth (00:57:19):

Um-

Weston (00:57:20):

But I, I get-

Seth (00:57:21):

And I still, I still love that friend too.

Weston (00:57:23):

Yeah, so do I. Um, but I do feel like it was this moment where, like, I, our relationship, we had a lot of just innate trust in each other.

Seth (00:57:31):

Yeah.

Weston (00:57:32):

And I kind of felt like I had sort of violated that trust by, like, keeping what was happening between me and our friend a secret, um, or just, like, not telling you about it, because we had such open lines of communication when it came to dating, um, and like, sex and just, like, what was going on in our lives in general that the fact that I had sort of kept this secret from you made me, just felt like, um, like, not, like not a, not, like, the best moment in, like, like, my personal choice making, and also just sort of a thing that harmed our relationship a little bit.

Seth (00:58:06):

And like, I think that that event was kind of the point where I broke that barrier. Um, this was kind of like the, the dam broke between us.

Weston (00:58:17):

Yeah.

Seth (00:58:17):

And I was now able to kind of breach the subject.

Weston (00:58:20):

Yeah. I mean, I think it sort of started a new phase of our relationship where we were kind of airing out some grievances between us. There were also two other things that happened this summer that I think are significant.

Seth (00:58:30):

Yeah.

Weston (00:58:31):

Um, and so one of them was that part ... I had been thinking about you and I more and more as platonic partners.

Seth (00:58:39):

Yeah.

Weston (00:58:39):

And I actually told you, um, that, like, we had a conversation in your car, driving somewhere, where I said, like, "Listen, Seth, like, I would marry you tomorrow." I didn't think that that would, like, change our relationship in any way, but that was just how I, I felt. Like, I just kind of felt very committed-

Seth (00:58:56):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Weston (00:58:56):

... to you and committed to our relationship, um, and really wanting to just put that out there that like, "Yeah, like, sometimes this might be work, but I just really want to, like, do that work, because I love you."

Seth (00:59:09):

Yeah. I remember that. I remember that.

Weston (00:59:12):

And I also made you a friendship bracelet.

Seth (00:59:14):

Which I still have and I look at it all the time.

Weston (00:59:16):

It's-

Nikki (00:59:16):

Gay.

Weston (00:59:16):

(laughs)

Justin (00:59:16):

(laughs)

Seth (00:59:16):

(laughs) Gay!

Nikki (00:59:16):

(laughs) Yeah.

Seth (00:59:25):

True. Um-

Weston (00:59:26):

There were two other things that happened that summer that I think were significant. One of them was that we moved in together-

Seth (00:59:31):

Yeah.

Weston (00:59:31):

... in the fall, last October. Um, but before that, you met somebody.

Seth (00:59:36):

Yes. Um, I have a partner who lives in Canada. But yeah, so that, that definitely changed our dynamic, um, because it's, like, it's changed my life, my interpersonal relationships, and my plans for the future-

Weston (00:59:50):

Yeah.

Seth (00:59:50):

... and all of which you're involved in.

Weston (00:59:52):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Seth (00:59:52):

Um ...

Weston (00:59:55):

I also, I don't know if I've said this to you before, so this might be new information.

Seth (00:59:58):

(laughs)

Weston (00:59:58):

Which is always scary. Um, but I think, like, prior to that point, like, prior, before you had met, um, your partner, um, this guy you're dating now, I had in the back of my head sort of, like, always thought that, like, maybe our relationship would change and we would, like, become more romantic.

Seth (01:00:18):

Mm.

Weston (01:00:18):

Um, and it was just sort of this, like, nagging thought in the back of my mind that I was never really all that serious about, but it was just sort of like a possibility.

Seth (01:00:28):

Mm.

Weston (01:00:28):

And I think watching you get closer to this other person made me really have to, like-

Seth (01:00:33):

Confront that?

Weston (01:00:34):

Well just like not ignore it, you know, because-

Seth (01:00:36):

Mm.

Weston (01:00:36):

It wasn't actually a thing that ... We said early on, like, it wasn't where our relationship was going.

Seth (01:00:44):

Yeah.

Weston (01:00:44):

It wasn't where our relationship was strongest. Um, and I really loved our relationship for what it was.

Seth (01:00:50):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Weston (01:00:50):

Like, I think the fact that our relationship is platonic is actually super important to me.

Seth (01:00:55):

Yeah.

Weston (01:00:55):

Um-

Seth (01:00:56):

Me too.

Weston (01:00:57):

And it wasn't something that I wanted to change. And like, when I said that, you know, like, I would marry you tomorrow, that didn't mean, like, "I'm gonna marry you tomorrow and then we're gonna have, like, we're gonna be, like, romantic, sexual husbands."

Seth (01:01:06):

Yeah.

Weston (01:01:06):

That was never the intention.

Seth (01:01:07):

Yeah.

Weston (01:01:08):

It was just to sort of convey that I felt, like, committed to that relationship.

Seth (01:01:12):

Yeah. And I think that when, when you said that to me, it definitely kind of, like, kicked this part of, uh, this, like, you know, like, the heteronormative concept of marriage.

Weston (01:01:23):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Seth (01:01:24):

Um, and I think that that's probably why I kind of, like, reacted the way that I did, which I think if I remember right, I didn't, like, say anything. (laughs)

Weston (01:01:33):

I think you were surprised.

Seth (01:01:35):

I was shocked, yeah.

Weston (01:01:36):

I don't know.

Seth (01:01:36):

Yeah.

Weston (01:01:36):

Yeah.

Seth (01:01:36):

Um, but like, because I, I just like, I don't know, like, that's not ... I don't think about marriage very often. And so like, it's not a concept I've addressed. And so to have you say that was just kind of like a, "My parents are married. Are we gonna be married like my parents are married?" (laughs)

Nikki (01:01:53):

(laughs)

Weston (01:01:53):

No, we're not. Um, but also, like, the other part of that, this sort of like idea that I had in the back of my mind that maybe our relationship would change I think was mostly driven by the fact that I've, I've never stopped finding you attractive. Like, I just, I just think that you're a very handsome person. Um, and that, but it ... But that doesn't mean that I'd want to have sex with you-

Seth (01:02:15):

Yeah.

Weston (01:02:16):

... because I don't.

Seth (01:02:16):

And that's allowed.

Weston (01:02:17):

But you're handsome.

Seth (01:02:18):

Thanks.

Nikki (01:02:19):

So that, that br-, begs the question then, how much of that idea do you think was genuine and how much of that do you think was kind of your perception of what is supposed to happen when you think somebody's attractive.

Weston (01:02:32):

I think you're hitting it on the head is that, um, earlier on I said that I, I still sometimes feel this, like, sense of insecurity that our relationship is, like, not valid, because it's not following kind of, like, a stereotypical progression of, like, what happens when two people meet and really hit it off. Um, like, you know, like, we live together, but, like, we're not romantic partners, but we mean a lot to each other and we, like, are sort of thinking about our future as something that's gonna, like, happen together on some level.

Seth (01:03:03):

Yeah. Like, I definitely ... And I remember we, we had this conversation pretty genuinely, like, early on, um, in our relationship. But I don't want you to not be a part of my life-

Weston (01:03:15):

Right.

Seth (01:03:15):

... at any point. Like, I don't see that happening. Like, I think you're-

Weston (01:03:17):

Yeah.

Seth (01:03:18):

... al-, you're always gonna be important to me.

Weston (01:03:21):

Yeah. I agree completely.

Seth (01:03:22):

I think what kind of makes that difficult is, like, trying to plan my own future, um, and like, what that means for you and what that means for, um, me and, like, whoever I end up with, um, in, like, the most kind of cohesive way possible.

Weston (01:03:40):

Right, and so here we are having a lot of, like, tough conversations about our relationship and about our future, the kind of conversations that people in serious romantic relationships have. And I don't really have, like, a frame of reference for friends having these kinds of conversations.

Seth (01:03:57):

No.

Weston (01:03:57):

You know.

Seth (01:03:58):

Because I get a lot of anxiety around that, about like, "Where is this going? What do I want this to be?" and that kind of thing. Um, and to think that, that relationships don't have to follow that kind of, like ... They're not a one-way street, right. Like, it's not like the only direction you go is straightforward until you're, you know, like, romantic married partners and then you die together. Like, there's a lot that can go on. Like, it's a diverse map of, of different branching options. And you can also park anywhere along the way and be like, "Actually this right here, this is good. I'm good with this and I don't need to change it."

Justin (01:04:35):

I have a question for you guys, to shift gears a little bit.

Seth (01:04:38):

Sure.

Justin (01:04:38):

What's your guys' favorite part of your relationship?

Weston (01:04:41):

So we've said that Seth and I have a platonic relationship. We also have a very not physical relationship. And this was something that we, um, had to negotiate over a period of months and years, because af- ... So first thing that happened is, like, "We're no longer going to be sexual with each other." But for a while after that, we were still kind of, like, cuddling. Um, but it was ... I don't think it was ever really comfortable.

Seth (01:05:07):

Yeah, I, I-

Weston (01:05:08):

For you.

Seth (01:05:08):

I don't-

Weston (01:05:09):

I was okay with it.

Seth (01:05:10):

Yeah. Um-

Weston (01:05:11):

But-

Seth (01:05:12):

So to elaborate on that, I don't, I don't do physical contact, uh, really.

Weston (01:05:18):

Over time, I was trying to figure out, like, what, what this was, what was happening, where, like, we would hug and I would just kind of feel this, like, tension, and I didn't really understand what was going on. And so we eventually had to have a conversation about how, like, that particular kind of physical contact, like hugging and cuddling, wasn't something we were always comfortable with.

Seth (01:05:36):

Yeah.

Weston (01:05:37):

Um, and so we really had to kind of, like, dial back the physicality of our relationship pretty significantly. And what we replaced it with was, um, we headbutt each other to show affection. Um, and I, I love it. Like-

Seth (01:05:52):

Me too. (laughs)

Nikki (01:05:53):

(laughs)

Weston (01:05:54):

I also think it, it's like ... So it's actually a very intimate thing that you and I do.

Seth (01:06:00):

Yeah.

Weston (01:06:01):

Um, and it's, it also feels like it's just ours.

Seth (01:06:04):

Yeah.

Weston (01:06:04):

Um-

Seth (01:06:05):

I, I don't do that with anybody else.

Weston (01:06:06):

Right. Neither do I. Um, and it, it just feels like kind of like a, a special thing. And I'm also sort of proud of us for, like, finding that solution.

Seth (01:06:14):

Yeah.

Weston (01:06:14):

Because I really like, like, physical affection. And I wanted to express that somehow with you.

Seth (01:06:20):

Yeah. And like, I'm not trying to nip that in the bud, you know. Like, I don't want to just be like, "Nope, doesn't work for me, you can't have it."

Weston (01:06:25):

Right.

Seth (01:06:26):

Because like, that's not fair.

Weston (01:06:28):

But we're just ... That's an example of, like, how you and I are actually very, very different people.

Seth (01:06:31):

Yeah.

Weston (01:06:31):

Um, and the way we sort of like express and receive love is very different.

Seth (01:06:36):

Yeah.

Weston (01:06:36):

And we kind of had to just figure out how that was going to work.

Seth (01:06:39):

Yeah. Yeah. Um, and this is something that you, I think you told me you, you s-, (laughs) saw, like, a, a gif of cats doing it or something like that-

Weston (01:06:49):

Yeah.

Seth (01:06:49):

... on the internet.

Weston (01:06:50):

Cats and pigs headbutt each other to show affection.

Seth (01:06:51):

Yeah.

Justin (01:06:51):

Aw.

Seth (01:06:53):

And like, and it works. (laughs) It works really well for me in particular because it's, it's quick and it's firm. Um, and that's, like, just the right amount of stimulation to me. Um, and so it's, it's nice. It's, it's, it's very, it's comforting. And like, I think that would probably be my favorite part of our relationship too is it's, it's nice that you were willing to ... Like, I've never ... So shout-out to my parents, because I know they're gonna be listening to this. I love you guys, but, uh, growing up was very much, like ... Because I as a kid was, was very into hugs and that kind of thing, and then I kind of hit a point where I just didn't like them anymore. Um, and I remember that being kind of hard on my mom in particular. Um, and so, like, it's not something that I'd ever really encountered before in any interpersonal relationships, romantic relationships. Like, uh, it's ... Like, my love language does not work well with physical contact. Um, and so to have you care enough about me to work to find a solution means a ton, because nobody ever has before. That's cool. I dig it.

Weston (01:08:08):

It is hard to kind of tie a neat bow on any of these stories, and I think that's just gonna be the way it is. Like-

Justin (01:08:13):

Totally.

Weston (01:08:13):

We didn't get married. We didn't have kids.

Seth (01:08:14):

I, we're, well, and yeah, and that's kind of the whole point-

Weston (01:08:16):

I dunno know.

Seth (01:08:16):

... right is that it's-

Weston (01:08:17):

Yeah.

Seth (01:08:17):

... like these atypical relationships.

Weston (01:08:21):

Yeah, our relationship-

Nikki (01:08:22):

It's more authentic like that anyway.

Weston (01:08:22):

It's-

Seth (01:08:22):

Yeah.

Weston (01:08:22):

Our relationship is-

Seth (01:08:22):

We can do the-

Weston (01:08:22):

[crosstalk 01:08:22] there's not an ending [crosstalk 01:08:24].

Seth (01:08:24):

We can do a This American Life style, like, just awkward ending of a sentence into music and then Ira Glass shows up.

Justin (01:08:30):

Yeah. (laughs)

Seth (01:08:30):

And he's like-

Nikki (01:08:30):

Perfect.

Seth (01:08:31):

... "This has been This American Life."

Nikki (01:08:34):

(laughs)

Seth (01:08:35):

"Thank you for tuning in."

Nikki (01:08:37):

(laughs)

Weston (01:08:37):

(laughs) I love Ira Glass.

Seth (01:08:40):

Me too. (laughs)

Justin (01:08:40):

(laughs)

Nikki (01:08:46):

All right, friends. That's it for this episode. I know, I know, we aren't happy either, but-

Weston (01:08:51):

Right now we are collecting mini stories about dating while queer. It can be any story about a particularly memorable date. It could be a first date or a 50th date, a good date or a bad date. Any story about any date will do. To tell us your date story, call our storytelling hotline at 503-512-9744 and leave us a voice message. That's 503-512-9744. Sign up for our Patreon for exclusive access to our bonus episode series that we are calling Sunday Brunch. In Sunday Brunch, me, Nikki, Justin, and Seth get real, raw, and unscripted. Come for the hot takes and mimosas, stay for juicy extended interviews with our storytellers, frank discussions about sex and sexuality and lots more. The first episode of Sunday Brunch will air next Sunday at 11:00 a.m. Check out patreon.com/queermeetsqueer for details.