An HIV Patient, a Doctor & a Friendship
Malcom Gregory Scott met Dr. Doug Ward in 1994 as an HIV patient with Kaposi Sarcoma, a type of cancer that causes the telltale skin lesions associated with an untreated HIV infection. Their story is a story of perseverance, luck, and friendship, but it is also an oral history of a queer community at the deadliest moment of the United States' HIV epidemic. Together, Malcom and Doug share how the HIV epidemic brought them together as doctor and patient, and how they became lifelong friends.
Content Note: This episode is rated as explicit for the occasional use of mature language and some brief, but frank, discussion of sexuality.
In this episode
Brief History of HIV: 00:07
Malcom & Doug’s Story: 05:09
Announcements: 43:20
Transcript
Weston (00:07):
Hi, everyone. It's Weston. Welcome to another episode of Queer Meets Queer. Today, we are going to hear the story of Malcom, a long-term HIV survivor who was diagnosed in the 1990s, and Dr. Doug Ward, an HIV specialist running a clinic in Washington, D.C.
Weston (00:29):
Malcom met Dr. Doug Ward in 1994 as an HIV patient with Kaposi Sarcoma, a type of cancer that causes the telltale skin lesions associated with an untreated HIV infection. Malcom and Doug's story is a story of perseverance, luck, and friendship, but it is also an oral history of a queer community at the deadliest moment of the United States' HIV epidemic.
Weston (00:56):
When people think about HIV, they often think of the 80s and 90s. They think of Rose's HIV scare on Golden Girls, the AIDS quilt, protests in front of the National Institutes of Health. They think of the activism of pop culture icons like Madonna and Dame Elizabeth Taylor, but the first recorded AIDS death in the U.S.A. occurred in 1969, in the form of a 16-year-old black teenager named Robert Rayford, from St. Louis.
Weston (01:26):
A case report of Rayford's death was published in the medical journal, Lymphology, in 1973. However, the disease Robert Rayford died from didn't receive widespread attention from the scientific community until 1981 when the Center for Disease Control released a study of a rare lung infection presenting in five white, previously healthy gay men living in San Francisco.
Weston (01:50):
Official accounts of the HIV epidemic in America have largely forgotten Robert Rayford. The fact that the CDC didn't discover AIDS until it began killing white urbanites in San Francisco is not a coincidence. Notably, a history of the HIV epidemic in America presented on the website HIV.gov begins in 1981, with this CDC report and not in 1969 with Robert Rayford's death.
Weston (02:21):
In 1982, The New York Times published an article that finally gave the new disease a name, gay-related immune deficiency, or GRID. The term acquired immuno deficiency syndrome or AIDS was coined the same year, but other names like gay cancer, gay pneumonia, and gay plague remained common for a long time.
Weston (02:41):
In 1985, the first HIV diagnostic test was approved by the FDA, but these tests wouldn't become widely available or affordable for more than a decade. This delay was primarily the result of a lack of financial support from the government.
Weston (02:56):
In 1987, ACT UP, the AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power, began a decades-long fight to pressure the American government to fund AIDS research, prevention, and treatment. Their slogan is "silence equals death." In 1991, The New York Times reported 100,000 AIDS deaths in a 400 word article that appeared at the bottom of page 18 of the paper.
Weston (03:21):
In 1994, the year Malcom became Dr. Doug Ward's patient, HIV was the leading cause of death for all Americans aged 25 to 44. This is an extremely brief history of the HIV epidemic in America. These events provide context, but they don't tell the whole story. For one, HIV is a disease that disproportionately impacts minorities. This is as true today as it was in the 80s and 90s.
Weston (03:49):
In 2018, blacks accounted for 42% of all new HIV diagnoses, but only made up 13% of the population. One thing that this statistic tells us, along with the story of Robert Rayford, who died of AIDS a decade before it was discovered in white men by the CDC, is that the experience of the HIV epidemic is extremely identity-based.
Nikki (04:14):
Look, we understand that this is not the full historical context of HIV and AIDS.
Justin (04:20):
We understand that HIV and AIDS is an incredibly complex subject and we don't hope to pretend that we're going to cover every single issue that we could possibly talk about.
Seth (04:28):
We also know that the emotions and politics of this are tied directly to the identities of the people that experienced it. We just want to give a little context to this story.
Weston (04:37):
Here, in this episode, Malcom and Doug, two white queer men, share the story of how the HIV epidemic brought them together as doctor and patient, and how they became lifelong friends.
Justin (05:09):
So, tell us how did the two of you meet?
Doug (05:13):
Um, I- Malcom can answer better, but I don't know exactly, uh, when it was, um, but he came to me as a patient. Uh, we first met sort of at the- the worst part of HIV, when we had some drugs that helped a little. Uh, we had some drugs to treat the infections we were seeing, but we couldn't actually suppress the virus like we do now. So, the treatment to some extent, almost made things worse, in that we kept people alive and allowed them to get more and more infections and complications. So, taking care of HIV-positive people, at that point, was, uh, really crazy, juggling treatments.
Doug (06:19):
So, I think, you know, I was reasonably well known in Washington. I do not know how Malcom got my name, uh, but, uh, he came to me for HIV treatment.
Weston (06:35):
Um, so Malcom, how did you hear about Doug?
Malcom (06:39):
On- in March of 1994, um, I had gone to the doctor I was seeing n- near my home on Capitol Hill, with this purple lesion on my left temple, and, uh, I knew it was KS. It was obvious it was Kaposi Sarcoma, the scarlet letter of AIDS, if you will. And he couldn't do anything for me without a biopsy, which I couldn't afford. I had no real medical care. Uh, I had to pay out of pocket, but I couldn't afford the biopsy, and that very afternoon, I went to the Pop Stop, which was kind of a gay hangout on 17th Street in NorthWest Washington, and the activist Michael Petrelis, who I knew from ACT UP, I was deeply immersed in ACT UP at the time, you know, he, standing at the top of the steps as I'm walking up to the Pop Stop, screams at the top of his activist voice, and everyone's hearing, he screamed, "Greg Scott, you didn't tell me you had Kaposi Sarcoma!"
Malcom (07:47):
Well, everybody could tell I had Kaposi Sarcoma, and I needed to get it treated, and my other friend, one of the founders of ACT UP, Stephen Smith, was seeing Dr. Ward, and he said, "You should come see Doug." It was a beautiful spring afternoon, I remember. I think we- I think, actually, we went back to his apartment and had sex and he lived in the same block as Dr. Ward's office, (laughs) and he said, "Hey." So, after we had sex, he's like, "Hey, you should come meet Doug right now." And we went over there and I think Doug came out from, you know, the clinical rooms to the lobby or the reception area, and met me briefly and said, "Yeah, put him in the books."
Malcom (08:30):
And I saw him within a matter of days and he was immediately able to treat my KS. Uh, he gave me some subcutaneous injections right there in the office and set me up for some radiation therapy, and, uh, I- I've never felt more indebted to someone in my life. You know, I just- I couldn't believe this man who I didn't know was just gonna help me like this. Uh, but I soon discovered that Doug and I had a lot in common. He- he was a naturalist. He loved nature. He was a bird watcher. He was a gardener. That was a thing that, you know, was an instant click between us, and so, I soon found myself, like, in love with this man and over at his house helping with his garden and mowing his lawn and stuff. So, it became a lot more than a doctor-patient relationship, as I remember it, pretty quickly.
Weston (09:27):
Doug, how do you remember your relationship with Malcom, sort of changing from- from patient to friendship?
Doug (09:35):
Well, it was always both. You know, and certainly as long as he was living in Washington, he was my patient and professional about that. Although as we became friendly, and I think it's what Malcom says, we, you know, I always spend some time with patients and don't just say, you know, "Oh, here's your blood counts. Take these pills." I talk to 'em, and so, you know, we got to know each other, recognized some of these mutual interests, you know, the- the gardening, nature, et cetera.
Doug (10:14):
I know that Malcom started coming over and helping me in the yard doing some, you know, interesting planting of stuff, but also, there's a lot of grub work with the yard. Uh, raking, mowing, mulching, and he was interested in- in helping, which I loved.
Malcom (10:39):
I loved it too. Those are some of my favorite memories of being with you, is the time we spent in your garden.
Doug (10:46):
Yeah, and, you know, when we're doing the dirty work, you know, spreading mulch, of course we were having conversations, stuff totally unrelated to medicine or to the yard, all different things. You know, even more philosophical, and music and stuff. And you know, I- I will say, at that point, I was still sort of gay naïve. Uh, I came out extremely late, and Malcom was, you know, a- sort of a- a counselor for me with that.
Malcom (11:24):
(laughing) One of my- one of the thing I've never forgotten that you said to me, it was like a revelation you had had early in your gay experience, and you were so happy to tell me that you had made this discovery, like, the bigger the dick, the crazier the guy is. (laughing) And I was like, "Yeah, that's really kind of true."
Doug (11:55):
Actually, my rule was that the bigger the dick, the stupider. (laughing)
Weston (11:58):
The stupider the guy. I think both would be great t-shirts. Or something. I don't know. We could put that cross-stitched on a pillow. Yeah.
Malcom (12:09):
It's a sampler. (laughing)
Weston (12:12):
Yeah. That's amazing.
Malcom (12:13):
I felt so lucky. I mean, if you can imagine where I was. I mean, I had this disease. It was killing everybody I knew, and I lucked upon this doctor who was insanely curious, first of all. I mean, Doug was so curious. I- I remember you being willing to just dig so deep, Doug, to find the answer to some problem, a new opportunistic infection would emerge and he would be on it.
Malcom (12:51):
I mean, I remember, Doug, you, like, were always figuring out the next step, and I've often used the metaphor when talking about my survival with AIDS, I've used the metaphor of being a surfer who just happened to catch the wave at just the right time, and if that's true, if- if the wave was the research and the knowledge necessary to stay just ahead of the next opportunistic infection that hit when your T cells fell to a certain count, you were the surfboard.
Malcom (13:25):
And, uh, so, I mean, my time with you was the giddy time in the dark hour- in the dark days of the plague. My time with you was the good time, the happy time, the- the hopeful time.
Doug (13:41):
Yeah. Well, you know, back then, you know, we needed to. We didn't have good treatments, and, you know, we- we had to use imagination and we had to use logic. You know, and as a very quick example, AZT came out first. AZT helped, but it was not enough. DDI came out later. DDI also helped, but it was not enough, and though- so, logically, if AZT helped, DDI helped, let's use them together and get more of an effect, but-
Weston (14:21):
And- and sorry, Doug. These are all different antivirals medications? Is that what those are?
Doug (14:26):
Yes. Nucleoside antivirals. They were the first two drugs. So, you know, for people like me, who logically, if one works, the other works, using both of them together probably works better, but at that point, there were no studies that showed that AZT and DDI together were better than just one. So, the people who make the official recommendations, you know, said, "Oh, no. You shouldn't use two of 'em, uh, because we don't have trials that show they work better." Whereas, to me and other frontline treaters, it was obvious that two of them is going to be better than one.
Doug (15:15):
So, you know, there was lots of things like that where you can't just go by what the recommendations are. Let's be a little creative, use some logic, and you may get a better outcome.
Malcom (15:28):
That's right. You weren't just curious and creative. You were courageous. You were willing to say, "I'm going to do this for my patient. I don't care what the label says. (laughs) I don't know- I don't care what the label indication is. I believe this will help and I'm going to use this for my patients to help them." If- if you had waited for studies to confirm a lot of the approaches, the modalities that we took, I would be dead, if you had waited for studies to confirm that. You had- you went on intuition and instinct.
Doug (15:58):
Yeah, uh, and sort of later on, when we got good drugs, the Department of Health and Human Services, DHHS, would have guidelines for treating HIV, but their guidelines required two large controlled trials to show that it is beneficial, and so, you know, uh, and this was years later than treating Malcom. I would always proudly say that I am five years ahead of the guidelines, which, to some extent, was- was very true. You know, there's some new great drugs that came out that would take a long time to get on the recommended list of the guidelines, where I'd been using them for years.
Justin (16:43):
Uh, yeah. So- uh, shifting gears a bit, so, how would each of you define your relationship? Would you use a label or maybe a longer description? Uh, how does that manifest for you guys?
Malcom (16:56):
You want to start there, Doug?
Doug (16:57):
It was definitely a complex relationship, 'cause there was absolutely always, uh, the doctor-patient relationship. There was a deep friendship that, you know, I think Greg appreciated me as his doctor and I also greatly enjoyed, you know, to some extent, his appreciation of me, which I don't want- I don't want to make it sound like sort of, you know, the- the doctor having his patients appreciative of him or whatever.
Doug (17:37):
But there was a, you know, a two-way appreciation for Malcom. With his Navy experience, with his TV experience, you know, this was a extremely intelligent man, extremely motivated with his activism, which I really appreciated, I was not out there on the streets and storming NIH, but I was so thankful for the people who did.
Weston (18:09):
Hmm. Me too.
Malcom (18:12):
I think it was more complicated for you than for me, Doug. I mean, just because of the professional stuff, the- the culture of professionalism that requires a certain emotional distancing, I imagine, from patients, uh, so that, you know, especially when you're treating men who are dying. So, I think it was probably more complicated for you than for me, and I- I- I thought about that even then about how this relationship was more difficult- complicated for you, and I was always very grateful that you were willing to navigate those complexities so that we could be more than just doctor-patient, so that we could be friends, uh, because I felt so personally, intimately grateful to you.
Malcom (18:55):
And, you know, the doctor-patient relationship is an intimate one, uh, even if it's a professional one. It's so intimate, and, you know, Doug knew things about me that nobody else knew. Right?
Weston (19:05):
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Malcom (19:06):
That's for sure. And so, I remember thinking about how- how hard it must be for you to have relationships with patients like me, who (laughs) wanted to be your friend, and who were indeed your friends, and that yet, you had to almost be able to switch hats. One one hand, to be a friend, and then on the next minute, turn a switch, and be the cool-headed doctor in the room, and, uh, that was another way I was- I was appreciative of you, is that you did that so well.
Doug (19:41):
Um, I wanted to go a little farther there. You know, I had the doctor relationship, the friend relationship. At that point, Malcom was also really hot.
Malcom (19:54):
Past tense. (laughing)
Doug (19:58):
Forgetting the doctor part, even as the friend part, you've got to draw the line there.
Weston (20:05):
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Malcom (20:06):
I think the relationship might have been even more complicated. It might have been sexual even. I might have let it go there, because I'm attracted to intelligence, and Doug's one of the smartest people I'd ever met, and, uh, I mean, I threw myself at other men like Doug. So, I think I would have been throwing myself at Doug and making it more difficult for him if I didn't have this really strict rule about not having sex with people who didn't already know themselves to be HIV positive.
Malcom (20:34):
I didn't trust the condom. Um-
Weston (20:36):
Right.
Malcom (20:37):
I think time has proven me correct. Uh, and, uh, so I just had a hard rule there and just- I would not go there with people who were negative. And there are a few people other than Doug who I think back and I imagine, what- what would that have been like if I had been able to have a sexual relationship with that person too? (laughing)
Doug (20:55):
Same. Doctor-patient. No. You know, sexual is an absolute, uh, no no, but it- there was some tension there.
Malcom (21:05):
Listen, we both wanted to do it. (laughing) Maybe that helped fuel the friendship somehow. I don't know, but maybe it only complicated it. I'm not sure about that part.
Weston (21:17):
It's fun having hot friends, you know?
Malcom (21:18):
(laughs) Yes, yes.
Justin (21:19):
It doesn't hurt.
Doug (21:21):
Just, I'm not sure it's relevant, but one very strong memory I have, Malcom would work in my yard a lot, um, and I would always, uh, at that point, I would always go into the office on Saturday morning to catch up on paperwork, finish my charts, et cetera. I'd go in early and come home probably 10:00 or 11:00, or so. And there was one Saturday, I drove home. It was a hot summer day and there was this absolute Adonis pushing a lawnmower around my yard, and was, like, "Who the fuck is this?" (laughing) And it was, uh, and old friend of Malcom's. I don't know all the details, but he was in town. He was unemployed, so Malcom brought him over and, you know, I would pay him to mow my lawn.
Doug (22:26):
That went on for- for some time, but just as I say, if my memories, you know, this guy was so drop dead gorgeous, mowing my lawn with his shirt off, sweating. (laughing) Uh, you know, and I've always associated him with Malcom. (laughing)
Malcom (22:50):
I'm hotter by association.
Doug (22:54):
The thought of you two having sex, um, was enough for me.
Weston (22:58):
So, obviously, um, we're here today, many years later after Malcom walked into your practice as a patient. Um, I'm curious, like, when did Malcom stop being your patient? Or, like, how did- how did that happen? When did you just become friends?
Malcom (23:14):
I couldn't stay in D.C. I mean, that was the bottom line. D.C.'s an expensive place to live. I was living on my social security. Um, Washington is also a working town. It's an industry town. It's a working town, and, you know, in New York, the first thing people want to know is, "What do you do?? Uh, in L.A., they want to know, "What's your current project?" In D.C., they want to know, "Who do you work for?" You know, and I didn't work for anybody. (laughing) And it just was not a place to retire, for so many reasons, and basically that's what I was looking at.
Malcom (23:50):
A re- we didn't know- well, I suppose I should back up a little bit. The dramatic turning point in the story is really when I get protease inhibitors through a compassionate access lottery. Again, something that never would have happened for me if Doug hadn't been there guiding me, but you signed me up for two compassionate access lotteries where they were literally drawing names- well not literally a hat, but figuratively, they were drawing names out of a hat, uh, to see who would get these lifesaving drugs.
Malcom (24:21):
I was too sick to be in the trials. They were rapidly expanding the trials to include everybody who could be helped by the drugs, but if you had less than 100 T cells or something, they were afraid you would die during the trial, and that didn't help their data set-
Weston (24:35):
Right.
Malcom (24:35):
... so, you had to have at least 100 T cells to be considered for the expanded access under the drug trials for the first two protease inhibitors that were becoming available. And thanks to some activists in New York, the drug companies, the FDA, they had been pressured to have these two compassionate access lotteries. So, with thousands of other people, I put my name in the hat and waited for my name to come up, and waited, and waited, and it was the worst winter of my life. I mean, I was literally on my deathbed. That part was literal. Um-
Doug (25:12):
Malcom literally was on death's door. He had zero T cells. He, you know, I always say it was down to 98 pounds. It may not have been 98, but he was skeletal. He was on as many HIV meds as we have, which weren't that effective. He was on multiple medications to prevent opportunistic infections. He was on anabolic steroids to maintain muscle mass that weren't working real well, and yeah, he cut it real close to where the protease inhibitors were being made available on these expanded access programs. And there were a couple of other patients who had days, weeks, maybe months, and they got the protease inhibitors just in time, and it was remarkable how rapidly people turned around.
Malcom (26:13):
Four weeks. Four weeks-
Weston (26:15):
Wow.
Justin (26:15):
Wow.
Malcom (26:15):
... for me. I was a different man four weeks later.
Weston (26:18):
Yeah.
Malcom (26:19):
It was amazing. I- when I cam- when I came to you in 1994, and I did check the date, uh, we were talking about that last time we talked about this, Doug, and we weren't sure what the year was, but it was March of 1994 that I became your patient. So, I was only your patient for just shy of two years. I came to you with 39 T cells. By the second year, going into year two of our relationship, I had zero T cells. It was below 10, immeasurable.
Malcom (26:49):
I had moved into an apartment around the corner from your office so that I could literally walk to your office for my care, and I can remember you telling me that if my weight dropped below a certain point, I would need the feeding tube inserted in my chest, and I think we were wrong, but at the time, a lot of us, in final stage AIDS, who, in my support group and whatever, we were convinced that the feeding tube led to toxoplasmosis.
Malcom (27:19):
Everybody we knew who had the feeding tube because of some other GI or wasting syndrome problem, they got the feeding tube and then they would get toxoplasmosis, and then toxo was the opportunistic infection they couldn't treat at that time. It was the killer of the moment, and just as at one time, it had been pneumocystis pneumonia, and then later it was KS, all of which I struggled with, but it was the microsporidiosis, the GI syndrome that was killing me. And I was convinced that if I got that feeding tube, that was it. That was all she wrote.
Malcom (27:53):
So, I can remember not coming to be weighed in. You wanted me to come into the office for something, and I knew I would be weighed, no- and that was, like, a week before I got the call saying, "You got the protease. You got the drugs. Your name came up. You won the lottery. You have a chance." So, it was a real- it was a really close thing there, indeed. Very close call.
Malcom (28:18):
One strong memory I have, we had also tried using Thalidomide, which is a very hard drug to get, but it was thought to be perhaps effective against the parasite that was in my GI system, the microsporidia. And, uh, so you went through a great deal of effort to get me Thalidomide, and I got the Thalidomide, like, maybe a couple of weeks before my name came up in the lottery for the protease inhibitors.
Malcom (28:45):
But I remember a few weeks after I had been on the protease inhibitors, going into your office and you saying to me, "This is the first time I've been able to say this to one of my patients with stage 4 AIDS about any opportunistic infection, but you no longer have microsporidia. We have cured the microsporidia." And I've never forgotten that conversation. You cried. You- you wept. You said, "I've never been able to tell this to anybody before," and we had a big hug, and I always carry that with me, that- that, to me, was, like, the real turning point, because I saw a change in you from that time forward. Like, that was a new day for you.
Weston (29:32):
Did you guys do anything to celebrate after Malcom started getting well and had this turnaround?
Malcom (29:41):
I'm trying to remember if we did anything specific. What- our thing was going out to dinner, and we had not been able to do that for awhile, but Doug and I both enjoy really amazing food, and D.C. had a amazing restaurant scene, even then. And so, I think we almost certainly went to dinner.
Doug (30:01):
Yeah. Well, I- I have two memories of dinner with you. One of them was you had me over to your apartment that was just behind my office, and you introduced me to the opera, The Pearl Fishers.
Malcom (30:17):
Ah, Bizet.
Justin (30:18):
Hmm. That's a wonderful opera.
Doug (30:21):
Uh, the other one was we went out to a new restaurant, and I don't remember what it was. I want to say something French, but that was before- well, maybe not. It may have been while you were on protease inhibitors because I remember you had to take your pills with food, and you took out your pill case and put 'em in your palm, and it was a complete handful of pills. There was, like, more than 20 pills that you had to take with your dinner. And that was when the protease inhibitors first came out. You know, you could, uh one of 'em was, uh, 18 capsules a day. Another one was 24 a day. So, yeah. You had a- this absolute mass of medications you had to take.
Malcom (31:16):
Yeah, 'cause it wasn't just the protease inhibitors. At that point, I was still on all of the prophylaxes for the opportunistic infections, to which I was vulnerable with so few T cells.
Weston (31:27):
And, um, for our listeners who aren't- who don't know what HIV treatment is like nowadays, when I started treatment five years ago, I started on a- a single pill that was smaller than your average multivitamin, and I take it once a day. And so, it's a totally different game these days than- than it used to be.
Doug (31:43):
Yeah, and, you know, I feel so guilty if someone has a problem and they have to take a two-pill regimen. (laughing)
Malcom (31:54):
Well, they worked. That's for sure, and, uh-
Doug (31:57):
Yeah.
Malcom (31:57):
... so, within a matter of weeks, I was feeling much recovered, and I knew that even if I were going to be sick again, I couldn't do it in D.C. We didn't know then how long this was gonna last, if it was gonna work, if these new T cells were even gonna be effective in the body. You know, there was so much we didn't know about how the protease inhibitor therapy would play out, but I knew that I could not survive another winter in Washington, D.C. And because of the other reasons why D.C. was not the friendliest place to retire, I, uh, I moved to Florida, and that's when I left Doug's practice as a patient.
Malcom (32:36):
Um, I held on as long as I can. I think he did some remote prescribing for me for another year or so while I got onto the AID- the AIDS Drug Assistance Program in Florida, and what have you, but, um, but we remained friends, and I ended up- I actually met a man-
Doug (32:53):
Let me take over from here.
Malcom (32:54):
Okay. (laughing) All right.
Doug (32:57):
Um, Greg was living in Wilton Manors, met a man and they were- they moved in together, (laughing) and I had a meeting in Miami one time, and arranged to go out to dinner with Malcom and his new partner, and went over to their place in Wilton Manors, and his new partner said, you know, "You really should meet Earl, my friend from New York." And he showed me a picture of Earl he had on his computer. Earl was a hospital chaplain and a former model. (laughing) And I said yes. I need to meet this person.
Doug (33:51):
So, they gave me Earl's AOL chat room name. They gave Earl my AOL chat room name-
Weston (34:03):
Man, I would love to know what those names were. (laughing)
Justin (34:05):
Oh, my gosh.
Doug (34:09):
You want to know the names? (laughing)
Weston (34:12):
I mean, if- I would love to know, but it- it's not important for you to, like, look it up right now. If you- if you remember, then...
Doug (34:17):
Yes. I- I was, uh, DirtyDogDC. (laughing)
Justin (34:23):
Better than I could have hoped.
Malcom (34:27):
Do you remember Earl's?
Doug (34:30):
Earl was MaleBeaver.
Malcom (34:32):
Oh, right. He's still MaleBeaver. [crosstalk 00:34:33] (laughing)
Weston (34:33):
He's still MaleBeaver. (laughing) Those are so excellent and-
Justin (34:41):
Absolutely [crosstalk 00:34:41]
Weston (34:41):
... just exactly what I was hoping for.
Justin (34:42):
Yeah.
Doug (34:44):
One time, I was online, and I saw that Earl was online, and I sent him and instant message. I was going up to New York a week later. We arranged to meet, and that was 21 years ago.
Weston (35:02):
And are you still together?
Doug (35:04):
And so, Malcom gets half credit for my 21-year relationship.
Weston (35:11):
Wow.
Justin (35:12):
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Weston (35:14):
That's beautiful.
Justin (35:14):
That's incredible.
Malcom (35:17):
I think Stephen Cox wants to take all the credit. (laughing) My friend in Florida. He's like, "Well, I was the one who actually introduced him to Earl." (laughing) But-
Doug (35:33):
I always tell it that you told me that I need to meet Earl. Steve told Earl that he needs to meet me.
Malcom (35:43):
Yeah. Yeah, that's probably- I think that's how it went down. Yeah. And, uh-
Doug (35:47):
He had Earl's picture on his computer, so he gets a little extra credit there.
Malcom (35:51):
Yeah. (laughing) But yeah, it was one of the high points of my post-AIDS life to go to your big reception and celebrating your wedding. That's- that was 10 years ago, I guess, or so. Wasn't it? Has it been 10 years that you all have been married legally?
Doug (36:11):
Yeah, the formal- be, uh 12 now.
Malcom (36:13):
12. Yeah. Yeah.
Weston (36:16):
And that's 'cause D.C. legalized it early on? Is that correct?
Malcom (36:20):
Yeah. They did before- they were one of the earlier-
Weston (36:23):
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Malcom (36:23):
... states, I think.
Doug (36:26):
Well, we actually did it, um, we, uh- I proposed to Earl the day the Supreme Court announced their decision.
Weston (36:36):
Oh, okay.
Malcom (36:38):
Wow. Such a [inaudible 00:36:39] (laughing)
Doug (36:39):
Then we actually had- we actually did it a couple months later.
Malcom (36:45):
I don't think the- my partner in Florida, going into this, thought, "Oh, Doug and Earl are a perfect match." You know, is- it was just one of those things, but they are. (laughing) And we just- I think we thought they might have a couple of hot dates or whatever.
Weston (37:01):
Sure.
Malcom (37:01):
We never imagined that they would end up being married and-
Weston (37:03):
Right.
Malcom (37:04):
... having this amazing life that they share.
Weston (37:06):
You didn't think DirtyDog and MaleBeaver were gonna get hitched? (laughing)
Malcom (37:11):
I love you, man.
Weston (37:12):
Aww.
Malcom (37:14):
I really do. It was- it's hard not- I have to say, that was- that was the hardest thing about leaving D.C. Uh, there was definitely some other drama in my departure from that city, but the hardest thing, for me, about leaving D.C. was leaving behind that doctor-patient relationship and being close enough to, you know- it's harder to be friends at a long distance. So-
Weston (37:38):
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Malcom (37:38):
... you ask- you were asking earlier if the relationship had changed, and it certainly has, in more ways than just not being his patient. Just being at a distance changes things-
Weston (37:48):
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Malcom (37:49):
... and it's really hard to be the kind of friend you want to be if you're not there on the daily. You know?
Weston (37:54):
Right.
Justin (37:55):
Mm-hmm (affirmative)-
Weston (37:56):
It's definitely different.
Malcom (37:57):
Yeah. So, I'll admit, sometimes, that I haven't been able to be a better friend to Doug since he basically saved (laughs) my life, uh, because of the distance. But also, I- I also understood on some level, and not just Doug but other people who have been so crucial to my survival in D.C., it was awkward for then, I think, that I was always in their debt (laughs) and always was- I could not see any of them without expressing my gratitude.
Weston (38:27):
Hmm.
Malcom (38:27):
"I can't believe I'm alive. I wouldn't be here without you. Thank you so much," I think gets a little old after awhile, (laughing) uh, however sincere the sentiment. And so, I think I was also letting people off the hook, and Doug included, a little bit.
Justin (38:42):
What would you say each of you have gained the most from your relationship?
Malcom (38:47):
My answer's bigger, so I think Doug should start. I've definitely gained more, I think. So, he should start. (laughing)
Doug (38:56):
Yeah. I am, uh, extremely gratified with my career in medicine. I actually, originally was not sure I wanted to go into medicine. I actually took the law boards, but my time in the Peace Corps really convinced me I wanted to do something directly helping people, and made up my mind to go into medicine. And there is absolutely gratification when you successfully treat someone, and Malcom was, you know, one of the sort of shining examples of that, that I had someone that I took care of who was on death's door and has been pulled back.
Weston (39:52):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it also sounds like Malcom was someone who was there for you as you were coming out, which, in my experience, is like a kind of important relationship for a lot of gay people and queer people. Is that person- yeah.
Doug (40:07):
Yeah. Um, not as much the coming out, but once I came out-
Weston (40:13):
Hmm.
Doug (40:14):
... what to do with it.
Weston (40:15):
Hmm.
Justin (40:16):
Absolutely.
Doug (40:17):
You know, he explained to me how to do AOL chat rooms. (laughing)
Malcom (40:21):
Oh, another way.
Justin (40:23):
The important stuff.
Malcom (40:24):
I'm gonna remind Stephen Cox of this. Another way in which I actually was instrumental in your and Earl getting together. See? (laughing) Wh- I- I th- when I think of Doug, I- I can't help but think I owe him my life. I mean, and when I'm discouraged or depressed or feeling the futility of the world, I am empowered when I think of Doug, because I remember that if somebody else is gonna fight so hard for me, then, you know, it- it gives me the wherewithal to stand up and fight for myself in a different way.
Malcom (41:10):
And, you know, I- when I list the reasons that I'm alive in spite of having come so close to death by AIDS, you know, I list marijuana, 'cause I don't think I would have held on long enough to get the protease inhibitors if I hadn't had marijuana. Um, I cite activism, because activism was my outlet for anger, and anger can be so toxic. Um, it's definitely not healing and curative.
Malcom (41:36):
But most of all, I have to thin- thank the vigorous efforts of Doug Ward. I mean, uh, I can't even frame my post-AIDS life in any other paradigm. He's always a part- Doug is always a part of that paradigm for me, of the- the reasons I live. And, uh, so, you know, that's a, uh, I don't think that's something I'll ever get past.
Weston (42:04):
Hmm.
Malcom (42:05):
You know? Um, so, aside from that, though, I want to say, Doug also- I- I met at a time when I was just coming into my, um, more adult education about art. So, in lesser scores, I learned a lot about art from Doug. Doug is a- has a really keen eye for art, and- and a marvelous collection, and himself. And so, that really helped awaken me- awaken my senses, uh, in terms of art, uh, and I appreciate art more and better today. I enjoy art more today because of my relationship with you, Doug.
Malcom (42:47):
And also, I became a better gardener. Doug is a really good gardener, and I love gardening, and I learned so much about the garden from Doug. Um, and so, on a few of those kind of mundane levels, if- if gardening and art are mundane. I mean, only compare to saving my life, but (laughing) you know. So, uh, I'm a much happier, richer person because Doug is my friend. There's no doubt about it.
Justin (43:20):
Thank you so much, everyone, for listening. You can find us online at queermeetsqueer.com and also anywhere you can find podcasts. Don't forget to give us a five-star rating. That helps us, uh, be a little bit easier to find for you, and find us on Instagram and Twitter @queermeetsqueer.
Seth (43:36):
Hey, y'all. We've got some announcements to make. In honor of the pumpkin spice season, we've got a special mini storytelling challenge for you. Thrill and chill us with a story of a memorable Halloween, prepare us a narrative feast about Thanksgivings and Friendsgivings past. Does sweater weather and sweatpant season bring up memories of romance and passion? Let's hear it. Keep us up at night with a ghost story about getting ghosted. To tell your autumnal tale, call our storytelling hotline at 503-512-9744 and leave a message.
Seth (44:08):
Also, sign up for our Patreon for exclusive access to our bonus episode series, Sunday Brunch, where we get real, raw, and unscripted. In the next episode of Sunday Brunch, we will hear Malcom and Weston tell the stories of their HIV diagnoses. Sunday Brunch drops every other Sunday at 11:00 AM. Check out patreon.com/queermeetsqueer for details. Again, that's patreon.com/queermeetsqueer. Thank you.
Credits
Executive Producer: Weston Anderson
Writer: Weston Anderson
Audio Engineer and Editor: Seth Goshorn
Hosts: Weston Anderson, Justin Wayne Peters, Nikki Burian, Seth Goshorn
Storytellers: Malcom Gregory Scott and Doug Ward
Music: Whispering through - Asura
Air Hockey Saloon - Chris Zabriskie
Enthusiast - Tours